Cannibalism and Sigil

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Zimrazim's picture
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Factol
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Cannibalism and Sigil

Creating a new thread based on Jem's comment in the "Githyanki and... Food" thread:

Jem wrote:
Cannibalism in a world with multiple intelligent species, and species at distinctly variant levels of intelligence, with different levels of need for food in the first place, is probably a tangled enough question to merit its own discussion.

There are the moral questions -- should we disapprove? To what extent? Should diapproval motivate active opprobrium? Beginning to shade into the practical -- is it cause for just war? How should interspecies communities like Sigil cope? Should the shipment of bodies be permitted? What other questions arise?

While I don't like the PS novels in general, I think this was touched on in "Pages of Pain." Basically, at least in order to serve 'long pig' in an eating establishment, there had to be some kind of approved source for the meat (in the novel, I think it was something like 'found on a Blood War battlefield'), and the restaurant/establishment had to have a license for it.

My take on the 'long pig in Sigil' issue:

The Guvners maintain a list of which species are considered 'sentient' with regard to 'does it count as cannibalism?' This list is updated each year. Grey areas include a lot of the weirder species crosses (and on the Planes, there are a LOT of weird interspecies crosses), as well as some extremely rare and exotic species.

An eating establishment requires a license in order to serve 'long pig.' This costs jink, and a Guvner inspector will be around occasionally to make sure the eating establishment is in compliance. A proper source for the meat must be provided. (There is a list for this too, but there is a section where the person can write in a source not already listed.)

Some eating establishments, especially in the Hive, serve 'long pig' without obtaining a license to do so. There is also a problem with 'long pig' being served as pork or sausage.

As for the moral plane, it depends on which planar you ask. I imagine a typical nonevil approach might be "it's normally not allowed, but under extreme starvation conditions, it's ok." A good-aligned priest or paladin might be forbidden to eat 'long pig' even if he faces starvation. On the other hand, eating the dead might actually be considered a legitimate 'burial custom' in some societies.

Actually, the Guvners probably allow cannibalism for religious purposes under a different set of rules.

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2) Roll a natural 1 on d20.
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Jem
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Factor
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Re: Cannibalism and Sigil

The basic idea of a centrally-maintained list forbidden to most establishments makes sense to me. It's probably the same list used to determine whether a killing is murder. Since the primary purpose of Sigil's laws, as I see them, is to make the city as attratcive a place as possible for as much trade and traffic as possible, that list is probably pretty broad-minded.

To be in compliance with legal requirements for the provision of manflesh, I suppose the Guvners would primarily care that the "meat" had been "butchered" in accordance with local laws, and outside of Sigil at that. However, some of these local laws could be tyrannies on the order of "I can kill and eat whoever I want," which I doubt the Guvners would recognize as legal systems. So you'd have the second layer of such imports only being permissible from entities that the Hall of Speakers or the City Courts recognize as legitimate governments, which would probably not overlap very far with cannibal cultures. You might get a lot of ongoing wars which are simply fig leaves for body-farming under "prisoner of war" clauses.

Obligate anthropophages (creatures who cannot substitute other meats for intelligent prey) pose another difficulty; it's probably reasonable to assume that they're expected to feed only at licensed establishments, and that these are generally shunned by other citizens and pushed as far underground as possible.

Chaotic_Goth1431's picture
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Re: Cannibalism and Sigil

I could see issues arising as to what specimens are considered acceptable as "long pork" in terms of age. Is there a trade in younger "game" a veal cut, if you will permit the comparison". Especially in the Hive, this is a reasonably horrid nightmare for youths (and even younger!) who find themselves down the wrong alley. That nice soup kitchen could trade in extras. As disturbing as this sounds, I could see a black market in it.

__________________

So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss. If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose. If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Bob the Efreet's picture
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factotums
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Re: Cannibalism and Sigil

"Sir, the sign outside prominently displays that you serve 'morally-degenerate tiefling' here."

"That's right."

"You need a license for that. May I see your distribution of sapients for consumption license?"

"No."

"Sir, where do you acquire the tiefling you serve here?"

"I kill them on the streets."

"I'm going to need you to come with me."

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Palomides's picture
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factotums
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Re: Cannibalism and Sigil

I hate to be the guy who comes out with the "pro-cannibalism" argument; but historically most cultures that practiced cannibalism didn't do it out of hunger.
There were always isolated cases like the Donner Party or the Uruguayan rugby team that crashed in the Andes; but almost no cultures ate other people out of hunger (and it has been argued that a lot of monster folklore was created to re-enforce the horrors of turning on each other out of hunger - see the Wendigo legend as one possible example)

Most of the time that cannibalism was performed, it was form of sympathetic magic where the eater would gain some of the power of a fallen foe or an ancestor by eating a small portion of their body.
And if you want to be a stickler, devout Catholics believe themselves to be cannibalizing their God. (Not said to start a flame war about religious beliefs, just pointing out a less removed example for we urban/suburban types)

Back to the realm of fantasy, I could easily see a group of orcs or others that might perform a similar ritual after defeating a foe that they thought was worthy. This could lead to a culture clash between the "cultured" and the "primitives" even if they were members of the same faction
Another twist would be if only anthropomorphic species count or not. For example, dragons are intelligent; but if your PCs heard that dragon muscle could grant you power, they might be tempted

Although, it should go without saying that you should have a pretty mature group of gamers if you plan to bring up this topic and don't want it to get disgusting REALLY fast

Zimrazim's picture
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Factol
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Re: Cannibalism and Sigil

Palomides wrote:
Another twist would be if only anthropomorphic species count or not. For example, dragons are intelligent; but if your PCs heard that dragon muscle could grant you power, they might be tempted

This also leads to another interesting question... what about the use of parts of sentient beings in alchemy, for potions and such? (My guess here is that Guvner regulations aren't nearly as stringent. If you're an adventurer coming back with a bagful of beholder eyestalks and want to sell them to an alchemist, maybe you sign a form saying where the eyestalks came from.)

Alchemists might also be required to provide ingredient lists for at least some of the potions they sell, so that potential buyers can avoid inadvertent cannibalism.

Of course, in the Night Market, who knows where those beholder eyestalks came from.

__________________

BoGr Guide to Missile Combat:
1) Equip a bow or crossbow.
2) Roll a natural 1 on d20.
3) ?????
4) Profit!

Chaotic_Goth1431's picture
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Re: Cannibalism and Sigil

It's made of people!!!! People!!!!

Apologies. I simply had to make that joke.

I feel these unpleasent issures are relative to the world of Planescape depite the admittedly morbid nature of the topic. In fact, I find Palomides' post concerning cannibalism for ritual vs. survival purposes to be an excellent point. There are always groups even within one's own race who might ascribe to these views.

Argh. Now I have an idea for a small githzerai or githyanki sect who ritually cannibalize dead spellcasters or psions.

__________________

So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss. If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose. If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Hyena of Ice's picture
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factotums
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Re: Cannibalism and Sigil

(and it has been argued that a lot of monster folklore was created to re-enforce the horrors of turning on each other out of hunger - see the Wendigo legend as one possible example)
Actually, the wendigo, sasquatch, and other "wild men"/"evil mountain hag" legends from the Inuit to the Maya SERVED as a cautionary tale against cannibalism for survival, or even sucking the blood from one's own pinprick and swallowing it (often how cannibal hags were born). The Wendigo however combined that with the horrors of hypothermia and frostbite.
In addition, they were also likely based on people suffering from rabies as well as certain types of psychosis and organic brain disorders, as you'll note a common theme with the wild-men is that cannibalism causes them to lose their humanity and become savage beast-like spirits who inhabit mountains and remote areas *the Amerindians associated mountains with danger and symbols of death, such as snakes, owls, and black-magick practitioners such as skinwalkers.*

The wild-man legends are very closely comparable to the lycanthropy culturebound syndrome in Europe, which was likely used to explain things such as rabies, mysterious deaths, serial killing, psychosis, and organic brain diseases.

The rabies association is patently obvious when you see that anyone attacked by a wendigo (and probably other wildman types as well) is likely to soon become a wendigo themselves, while in lycanthropy those bitten by a lycanthrope will eventually also become lycanthropes.
Humans all the way back to ancient times were quite aware of rabies and what it was associated with-- in fact, Greco-Roman mythology dating all the way back to 700BC or earlier has their own goddess of rabies-- Lyssa. While Lyssa's portfolio also included senility and hunting accidents, her portfolio primarily involved hunting dogs and other humans becoming "confused" and turning on their masters/fellow hunters. (in D&D terms, Lyssa would be a quasi-deity, as she was one of the Cacodemons-- horrors unleashed from Pandora's box.)

The hypothermia and frostbite association with the Wendigo is also completely obvious. First of all, the bottoms of the host's feet become "burned" when the spirit enters their body *the feet are the first and most likely area to suffer frostbite*. Second, the type of people likely to be possessed are those who get lost in the wilderness during winter *this is a symptom of advanced stages of hypothermia, as the victim's body temp becomes cold enough that the brain doesn't function properly, causing confusion*. If I remember correctly, they are often described as wearing only sparse clothing *another common symptom of advanced hypothermia is the removal of clothing-- the bodies many people who die of hypothermia while conscious as opposed to over-night sleeps, are found missing articles of clothing*.

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