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Brainstorming session, part 5: Miscellaneous; Plane of Shadow

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Wed, 2006-08-30 13:29
#1
Darkness_Elemental
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Brainstorming session, part 5: Miscellaneous; Plane of Shadow

Since the first thread is now devoted to the whole Modron question...
________________________________

'Orroloth' wrote:
One of those is the role of the Shadow plane compared to the other transitive planes. In original planescape, this plane is not a fully transitive one (it was a demi-plane), so of course the bloods at the mimir thought up a third transitive plane, named the Ordial. Is the Shadow plane a real transitive plane, or might it actually connect to the entire multiverse, as a sort of dark mirror of reality itself?

Has anyone else read Mongoose Publishing's Classic Play, The Planes book? They associate the Plane of Shadow with the Negative Energy Plane, placing it between the Material and the Negative Energy Plane, with the Positive Energy Plane above the material. I don't believe they actually state this themselves, but the Plane of Dreams could serve a similar intermediate role between Positive and Material. In Planescape terms, this would make Shadow a new or previously undetected layer of the Etherial Plane. Dream is a place of idle creation, it could easly be looked on as being the portion of the Ethreal through which creative energies from the Positive are flowing to the Material. Shadow is a dark plane reflecting what is not, indeed, the Shadows could be looked on as being reflections of what is not because something else already is. Shadow would theirfore be posibility draining out of the Material and into the Negative Energy Plane.

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Wed, 2006-08-30 20:10
#2
Iavas
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Brainstorming session, part 5: Miscellaneous; Plane of Shadow

So would it be an Inner Plane, a Demiplane, or a Transitive Plane?

Also, was the Ordial ever mentioned in 2e, or was it just a fan creation from Mimir?

According to the Rule of Three, which we don't necessarily have to follow, there's only room for one new Transitive Plane in this cosmology. Draw!

PS: If I'm not making any sense... that's because of the gas leak in my stove. It makes me tingly like the colored spots floating around.

Thu, 2006-08-31 09:56
(Reply to #2) #3
Darkness_Elemental
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Brainstorming session, part 5: Miscellaneous; Plane of Shadow

'Clueless' wrote:
The Ordial was directly referenced as well in Guide to the Astral as a theoretical plane bridging the Inner and Outer Planes to allow the movement of godlike power and belief from the Outer to the Inner, and the movement of substance to produce petitioner bodies and other such things, from the Inner to the Outer.
I'm not familiar with the 2e Planescape setting books, but I think that's one of them.

From what I've gathered, the Ethreal Plane had three layers in 2d: the Border, the Deep, and Dream. I was suggesting that Shadow could turn out to be another layer of the Ethreal, and that Dream and Shadow could be conented to the flow of Positive and Negative energy through the Material Plane.

Thu, 2006-08-31 12:23
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Daylen
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Brainstorming session, part 5: Miscellaneous; Plane of Shadow

I don't remember dream being part of the etherial plane. and its usually not refered to as having layers. just parts. This is because the deep is connected to itself but the border is not connected to all boarders.

Thu, 2006-08-31 14:04
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ripvanwormer
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Brainstorming session, part 5: Miscellaneous; Plane of Shadow

The region of dreams is inside the curtain of vaporous color.

Fri, 2006-09-01 11:45
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Darkness_Elemental
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Brainstorming session, part 5: Miscellaneous; Plane of Shadow

Hmm...

I guess I'm still not clear on how the region of dreams works in Planescape. I was under the impresion that the Dream Plane described in the Manual of the Planes was the same as Planescape's region of dreams, and that it had simply been moved out of the Ethreal.

Fri, 2006-09-01 18:20
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Brainstorming session, part 5: Miscellaneous; Plane of Shadow

'Darkness_Elemental' wrote:
I was under the impresion that the Dream Plane described in the Manual of the Planes was the same as Planescape's region of dreams, and that it had simply been moved out of the Ethreal.

They're basically the same, yes.

Sat, 2006-09-02 13:26
(Reply to #7) #8
Narfi Ref
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Brainstorming session, part 5: Miscellaneous; Plane of Shadow

The way I like to see it is thus:
The Ordial (or "Primordial" as I like to call it) contains the rawest substance that makes up everything. Anything that goes there is instantly atomized this is why no one has actually discovered it. Even spells that would reach across it from the Outer to the Inner or vice-versa are broken down.
The Inner Planes forms from the stuff of the Prim/Ordial that finds distinction.
The Ethereal forms from the run-off of the Inner
The Prime Material forms when this coalleses.
The Astral is formed from the pure thought of the sentients of the PM.
The Outer Planes is formed from the more structured belief of the PM.
The Prim/Ordial is then formed from the belief that breaks down.
This forms a ring made of two sets of three: the Transitive (Prim/Ordial, Ethereal, and Astral) and the Structure for lack of a better term (Inner, Prime Material and Outer). As per the Rule of threes, there should be one more set of three Planes or groups of Planes. I think that these should be the Pseudo-Planes that exist inside the ring instead of arround it.
The first would be the Plane of Dream (That Which Could Be) and it exist coterminous to each of the Transitive Planes. Sometimes sleeping beings send part of themselves through a Transitive Plane into the Dream Plane.
The second would be the Plane of Shadow (That Which Isn't). This, is coexistent with each Structure Planes. Like the Ethereal there is a Light Shadow version of each Structure Plane, and they are all connected by a Deep Shadow.
Together, these form the spokes of the Greater Wheel. But that leaves one more Plane, and a hub for the Wheel. The Hub consists of the Far Realms (That Which Should Not Be). Parts of the Far Realms are coterminous with one or both of the of the other Pseudo Planes, some parts are coexistant.
Natives of the Pseudo Planes can travel through all of the Pseudo Planes to any plane they touch. Non natives can travel through the Shadow and Dream planes only to the Far Realms.

Aside from the task of detailing the Light Shadow and figuring out how Dream works, does this sound good to you guys?

Sun, 2006-09-03 10:54
(Reply to #8) #9
Iavas
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Brainstorming session, part 5: Miscellaneous; Plane of Shadow

Narfi...I love it! That makes a lot of sense to me, and it seems to follow planar rules. The only thing I can gripe about is that I've always seen the Far Realm to be outside of existence, rather than a realm within it. Perhaps replace that with something else? There are plenty of options. Anyway, I like the idea overall, though. You get my vote.

Sun, 2006-09-03 11:19
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Narfi Ref
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Brainstorming session, part 5: Miscellaneous; Plane of Shadow

Well, if Dream and Shadow were once part of the Ethereal, but grew and moved around to fill a void, perhaps they attached themselves to the Far Realm when this happened, allowing the horrors that exist there new access to the Multiverse.

Mon, 2006-09-04 09:39
(Reply to #10) #11
Iavas
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Brainstorming session, part 5: Miscellaneous; Plane of Shadow

But it still contradicts the nature of the Far Realm. The Far Realm is so far from the multiverse, thing that live there can't even survive on the other planes. There's obviously more than three dimensions, as things can live in multiple layers at the same time, and you must travel to the ends of space and time to breach the barrier. Making it simply another plane would be... well... simplifying it. The Far Realm, in my opinion, should remain the eternal, rarely visited (and even more rarely survived), mystery on the edge of thought and reality. It should be the limbo from which multiverses rise and fall as amoeba with godlike powers swim after hordes of cow-shrimp sucking on the brains of brick leaves... what I'm trying to get at... Limbo has nothing on this place in terms of weirdness, and the Astral seems close and homey in comparison.

Tue, 2006-09-12 13:22
(Reply to #11) #12
moogle001
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Brainstorming session, part 5: Miscellaneous; Plane of Shadow

'Iavas' wrote:
So would it be an Inner Plane, a Demiplane, or a Transitive Plane?

Also, was the Ordial ever mentioned in 2e, or was it just a fan creation from Mimir?

According to the Rule of Three, which we don't necessarily have to follow, there's only room for one new Transitive Plane in this cosmology. Draw!

PS: If I'm not making any sense... that's because of the gas leak in my stove. It makes me tingly like the colored spots floating around.

As far as I know, the Ordial was never mentioned by Planescape canon, only the fans. And as far as the PSCS is concerned, there are at least six transitive planes (the Pseudo Planes and the Intermediate Planes). But really, what plane can't be used to travel to others?

The Dream was once a liner between the Prime Material Plane and the Ethereal. It wasn't really a layer, but it could be seen in the Ethereal. Now, the Dream is no longer tied to just the Prime Material, but it can still be accessed from the Ethereal.

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Tue, 2006-09-12 13:29
(Reply to #12) #13
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Brainstorming session, part 5: Miscellaneous; Plane of Shadow

'Darkness_Elemental' wrote:
Since the first thread is now devoted to the whole Modron question... ________________________________
'Orroloth' wrote:
One of those is the role of the Shadow plane compared to the other transitive planes. In original planescape, this plane is not a fully transitive one (it was a demi-plane), so of course the bloods at the mimir thought up a third transitive plane, named the Ordial. Is the Shadow plane a real transitive plane, or might it actually connect to the entire multiverse, as a sort of dark mirror of reality itself?

... Shadow is a dark plane reflecting what is not, indeed, the Shadows could be looked on as being reflections of what is not because something else already is. Shadow would theirfore be posibility draining out of the Material and into the Negative Energy Plane.

Well, with Chapter 1 its pretty obvious what my answer to Orroloth's question concerning what the Shadow is, but I must say there's something very alluring about the Shadow Plane draining possibility away into nothingness Smiling

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Tue, 2006-09-12 18:22
(Reply to #13) #14
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Brainstorming session, part 5: Miscellaneous; Plane of Shadow

If the Dream was once tied to the Ethereal, did characters dream while on the Outer Planes?

Also, if the Outer Planes are Thought (or Belief) and the Inner Planes are Being, what is the Material Plane?

Quote:
but I must say there's something very alluring about the Shadow Plane draining possibility away into nothingness Smiling
Thanks! __________________________

As far as a module for this goes, I've had this idea bouncing around for a while where a villain sets things up so that if he's ever killed, his soul gets sent to a Shadow where he won the battle. Once he awakens on the Shadow world, he would try to alter history so he never lost by merging the Shadow world into the real world and stealing its reality.

Wed, 2006-09-13 06:09
(Reply to #14) #15
Narfi Ref
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Brainstorming session, part 5: Miscellaneous; Plane of Shadow

'Iavas' wrote:
But it still contradicts the nature of the Far Realm. The Far Realm is so far from the multiverse, thing that live there can't even survive on the other planes. There's obviously more than three dimensions, as things can live in multiple layers at the same time, and you must travel to the ends of space and time to breach the barrier. Making it simply another plane would be... well... simplifying it. The Far Realm, in my opinion, should remain the eternal, rarely visited (and even more rarely survived), mystery on the edge of thought and reality. It should be the limbo from which multiverses rise and fall as amoeba with godlike powers swim after hordes of cow-shrimp sucking on the brains of brick leaves... what I'm trying to get at... Limbo has nothing on this place in terms of weirdness, and the Astral seems close and homey in comparison.

I wasn't trying to say that we should make it easy to reach. Forget about what I said earlier about how the Far Realm connects to Dream and Shadow. The MotP suggests a connection through the Dreamheart. If we come up with one connection to the Deep Shadow that is hard to access and incredibly dangerous, then this would work.

Wed, 2006-09-13 09:04
(Reply to #15) #16
Iavas
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Brainstorming session, part 5: Miscellaneous; Plane of Shadow

'Darkness_Elemental' wrote:
If the Dream was once tied to the Ethereal, did characters dream while on the Outer Planes?

Also, if the Outer Planes are Thought (or Belief) and the Inner Planes are Being, what is the Material Plane?

Maybe that's why outsiders don't sleep as much... it's just not as fun.

And Material Plane is an equal mix of thought and being. They are the nexus point between outer and inner, and although that's not the center of the multiverse, which doesn't exist, it is a pretty important place regardless of what the planarists say.

Sat, 2006-09-23 00:45
(Reply to #16) #17
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Brainstorming session, part 5: Miscellaneous; Plane of Shadow

'Darkness_Elemental' wrote:
If the Dream was once tied to the Ethereal, did characters dream while on the Outer Planes?

Also, if the Outer Planes are Thought (or Belief) and the Inner Planes are Being, what is the Material Plane?

That's one of the reasons why I expanded the Dream to touch every place in the multiverse.

As for the Prime Material, it could be seen as the balance between Thought and Substance, infinite mixtures of both on infinite worlds.

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Fri, 2006-09-29 08:13
(Reply to #17) #18
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Brainstorming session, part 5: Miscellaneous; Plane of Shadow

I'm sorry if I interrupt the interesting discussion in the last section of this thread, but I have some opinions on the Shadow Plane that I'd like to air in public.

I was the writer of the Shadowlie article a long time ago. It seems that the Planewalker team (Clueless) have used some of the concepts in that article to describe the Shadow Plane in the 3rd ed. revision of Planescape (see the original thread posted by Orroloth). I'm honored by this, but it does raise some concerns that needs to be adressed. If I am being presumptious or erranous in understanding it this way, I apologize in advance.

The planes with the Shadowlie in effect is a very different place than the planes that are now. The Shadowlie makes everything open for debate. Nobody knows whats real and nobody knows what is false. The concept for the article was in my campaign something that revolutionized the way that the very planes were perceived. It introduced a very grim and pessimistic era for thinkers and greybeards across the planes. The Shadowlie made everything open for debate in the sense that mostly everything perceived was an individual interpretation of reality and the classifications of different realities. If someone thought that there was only the Abyss and Mt. Celestia in the afterlife, the Shadowlie kept the whole picture hidden from them. It blocked the other realities out of peoples minds.

In a strange way I designed it that way so that more prime worlds could be included under the Planescape umbrella. In this way I easily assimilated the newer D&D settings into Planescape because their existance simply hadn't been perceived earlier. The design also meant that the Shadowlie was in some strange way expanding or shrinking, depending on the perspective. I theorized further by setting Sigil as a beacon. What I mean by beacon is something that opposes the Shadowplane. If you read the original article you can see that I explain Athas' isolation from the Great Wheel as a place within a darkplace. Sigil was the opposite of that. It was an inclusive place that shone the dark away into the Shadow Plane. The proximity of the other outer planes left them in the "glow" of Sigil in some ways and not that easily affected by the Shadowlie.

Now I'm drifting from the point of this post. What I meant to say was that the Shadowlie is very powerful and should be limited in some extent if included in the Planescape CS. It should only be affecting some prime worlds in a deep extent and others only a little. If its included in the way I intended it it becomes to unfocused I think.

That's it. I'm back on the net after a little hiatus by the way. Hello again everyone and keep on loving Planescape!

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