Blood war ends, upper planes under siege - consequences?

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NichG's picture
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Blood war ends, upper planes under siege - consequences?

As part of a plot arc in a game I'm running, the Blood War has been brought to a halt via various machinations I won't go into right now and an allied force of Baatezu, Yugoloths, and Tanar'ri have basically put all of the upper planes under siege. So far I figure that the Upper Planes will be trying to evacuate their petitioners, and the various Powers will be sealing their realms as best they can, but I'd like some perspective on other possible responses from the upper planes, and generally what happens next as far as the rest of the multiverse.

I imagine that life in Sigil goes on, with an increase in disturbances due to celestials attacking fiends rather than vice versa and depending on their vehemence being arrested/mazed/etc (since that 'peace' basically existence due to the fiends' willingness to let the celestials help them kill eachother)

How would the Inner Planes react? The Merkhants make money smuggling valuable petitioners across the battle lines? The elemental lords, the genie lords, do they care?

What happens on the Prime? Do the gods suddenly go silent and stop granting powers since they're distracted fighting battles off in their realms? Do the priests discover that the spirits of even the goodly dead end up going to places of torment? Do some gods call for a mass suicide/exodus of their followers to the Outer Planes to help them fight the battles of the apocalypse?

What happens on the Lower Planes? With all that military moved away from home, do various locals try to make grabs for territory and power?

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Where would petitioners be

Where would petitioners be evacuated to?

Also, gods didn't really participate in the Blood War. Not necessarily any reason they'd participate in a fiendish siege of the upper planes.

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Well, while I think that

Well, while I think that most likely that at least a few good deities would aid in a defense against fiendish attacks, I don't see why petitioners should be evacuated of where they should be evacuated to. Firstly a petitioner's home plane is the only place where he can die without being erased from existence and secondly the goods need followers to exist, not petitioners. Smiling

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Well,certain gods of good

Well,certain gods of good make it their thing to crusade against evil, so of course they'd be fighting. Others I imagine would do everything they can to close their realms to avoid the fighting coming to them. The reason that the gods would care in this case, but not in the case of the Blood War, is that the fiends are basically going to corrupt anywhere they end up taking control of. That means mass movement of Upper Planar realms down to the Lower Planes, like what happened to Nemausus but more wide-spread. That means that a power that ignores events risks his realm being transported to the lower planes as everything around it turns to evil. That didn't seem to be so easy a factor in the Blood War since most of the battlefields were neutralish-evil, so of course corrupting them didn't do much - you'd have to install a stable bureaucracy or mass insanity or something to shift the battlefields over.

As far as evacuating petitioners, I'm also assuming that many of the powers of good would want to protect innocents and the souls of their favorite followers from be captured by the invading fiends and turned into larvae or worse. So its better to send the petitioners to, e.g., the Prime, where yes they can be permanently destroyed, but they're also less likely to end up transformed into fiends and fighting against their patrons and friends.

Jem
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I would say that the fiends

I would say that the fiends find out how hard it is to fight a war of conquest against motivated natives with equivalent technology and similar numbers.

 

However, let's check our assumptions. Let's say that devils are roughly equal in number to archons, and yugoloths to guardinals (I suppose the gehreleths are staying out of it? or not?), but demons well outnumber the eladrin and remaining groups. Thus we'll give the fiends numerical advantage over other exemplars.

However, the petitioners (the unpromoted petitioners, that is) can't be moved off the Lower Planes to fight, and if they are moved they'll be extremely unmotivated. Or will they? If a petitioner dies off-plane, he suffers oblivion. Might an unpromoted petitioner of the Lower Planes prefer this to his damned existence? Alternatively, could a petitioner convert postmortem through the use of /atonement/ spells, and thus be stolen? That would be a fascinating coup.

The technology of both sides, in their equipment, native abilities, and magical and deific abilities, is roughly equal on neutral ground. But if you're using the old 2e fluff, one of the key problems of crossplanar religious wars was that priestly abilities decreased in strength as a priest went around the Great Ring. In 3e, you have the fact that the Upper Planes are mildly or strongly good-aligned, and so the powers of Good will enjoy at least a small edge over invading fiends. There are also the features of each plane: Elysium's traveler's travail will make invaders most unhappy for a long time. So in terms of local knowledge and technological "level," we must give the edge to the celestials.

Regarding that neutral ground, by definition the middle powers in Mechanus, the Outlands, and Limbo will remain aloof unless the balance becomes tilted too far. However, among the vast populations of mortals, it's certain that the gods of the Upper Planes enjoy a clear propaganda advantage. Higher-class demons may be immune to less than holy weaponry, but the hordes of lower-class demons are quite susceptible to a hail of commoners' cold iron arrows.

The Princes of Elemental Good and Evil will probably mobilize immediately. The djinn and efreet will also take sides, but will primarily direct their energies at each other, so little will happen between them except an intensification of the combat in Smoke, unless one side or the other obtains an edge. Zaaman Rul may be promptly wiped out, though, leading to a firm alliance between Fire and Evil, forcing Air and Water generally to the other side. The marids may not be thrilled with that, but it will be politically expedient.

Eyeball summary: fiends have edge in numbers, surprise, and mobility (the latter two because they are on the offense). The celestials have the advantage of home-ground knowledge, superior abilities in their native planes, and public sentiment. Each side will maneuver to bring its strengths to bear.

Thus, I think the shakeout will be as follows: an initial incursion directly in to the Upper Planes will fail due to the defenders' advantages. Continued skirmishes will make the settled regions of those planes more fortified. Elysium will be fairly free of trouble, and Ysgard, with its resurrection ability, will have no trouble. Arcadia's weakened institutions will find themselves beleaguered and the front line will shift to the Lawful side of the Ring. The Outlands and Mechanus will become the front line for most of the combats. The modrons will defend the plane but refuse to side with Good or Law, and will likely hunker down and fortify. The formians, fighting the disruption of their home at first, will almost certainly return to the side of Good.

I think Arcadia will lose its epithet of 'the peaceful kingdoms' and become a plane of paladins and lines of fortress-cathedrals. Its primary danger will be rot from within, if the devils and yugoloths can manipulate the leaders into harshness and cause the rest of the plane to follow Nemausus into Mechanus, where the fiends have more equal terms. The Lawful side of the Outlands near the Upper gate-towns will be the primary front line, with secondary fronts at the Upper Chaotic gate-towns. I fear the Beastlands may experience significant trauma; the animal lords are powerful, but not well-organized or of numerous followers.

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If I remember correctly,

If I remember correctly, exemplars which are killed off of their home plane simply reform back at their home plane. Doesn't this imply that the attacker in any inter-planar war also has the advantage of the impermanence of their deaths, at least as far as their higher-ups?

As far as the Traveller's Travail, at one point I had a group of fiends try to bluff their way past it by storing up potential good acts before going to Elysium, in the form of having many tortured and captured beings who they would, in an act of goodness, free from their bindings and release. A bit of a 'is good in intent or action?' philosophy there, I suppose.

Jem
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NichG wrote: If I remember

NichG wrote:

If I remember correctly, exemplars which are killed off of their home plane simply reform back at their home plane. Doesn't this imply that the attacker in any inter-planar war also has the advantage of the impermanence of their deaths, at least as far as their higher-ups?

Slain fiends do return, yes.  But only after a wait of 99 years.  For all practical purposes on a short-term war plan, each side suffers casualties when their troops are killed, save for those summoned via spell.

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As far as the Traveller's Travail, at one point I had a group of fiends try to bluff their way past it by storing up potential good acts before going to Elysium, in the form of having many tortured and captured beings who they would, in an act of goodness, free from their bindings and release. A bit of a 'is good in intent or action?' philosophy there, I suppose.

Depends on how 'smart' you want to make it, I guess.  If you're going somewhere with good or at least neutral intentions as to what you want to do when you get there, you'll get their fastest if you take the route that presents itself as you help those in need on the way.  If you avoid opportunities to help people, you won't be taking the fastest route to where you're going, and if you intend to do bad things when you get there, you may not be able to get there from here.  The plane will sure be sending a lot of other well-intentioned do-gooders your way.  Meanwhile, try to keep an invading army of foot-soldier demons together when they're mainly interested in killing each other and pissing off anyone else they come across.  ;^)

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I would suspect another

I would suspect another bloody stalemate, with all the newly-arriving petitioners caught in the middle and disrupted. I agree with Calmar as well - there seems no reason to evacuate the petitioners from upper planes. Many of the upper planes specifically have petitioners who are determined to fight in its defence (Ysgard, Arcadia, etc).

The effects on the outlands would probably be worse - could the Rilmani even get involved?

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Theorically, blood war

Theorically, blood war balances the multiverse. Without it, the lower planes are more powerful than the upper, so Rilmani would decide to act to serve the balance. Monster Manual IV includes the rare type Proxy of the gods of neutrality, the Concordant Killer, so an increasing army of those could aso be included with the Rilmani.

I don't know very well the planar chant, but who is imprisoned in Carceri? Maybe could be interesting an epic event of liberation of the ancient Titans of Greeks to help against lower planes.

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Honestly, as a GM, it is

Honestly, as a GM, it is your buisness to dictate how things work in your game.  Here are some ideas:

A power is pretty darn strong in his own domain.  Basically, s/he can control every aspect of it, and remember, all demons are weakened, being 2 planes away from their home plane.  In general, I would expect, if the powers were on the defensive, that no one would be able to break into the powers' homes.  

What the demons could do is go on a killing spree, trying to kill all people who worship good-aligned dieties, in order to weaken them, or to try and make a foothold in some of the non-power-controlled areas.

I would expect Sigil to become a much darker place.  With the three infernal races working together, they could use Sigil as a staging ground to prepare troops, heck, they can even buy supplies they will need and grab some entertainment while they wait to be shipped out.  The lady of pain probably wouldn't do much if they didn't stir up too much trouble.  And, really, who is going to stop a united horde of some of the most powerful beings on the planes?  Sure the Harmonium could put down a malcontent devil or two, even they are smart enough not to mess with a horde.  

I am interested in how you handled the end of the blood war.  I was thinking of working a campaign around that and I would love to hear how you pulled it off.

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NichG's picture
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I'll post the plotline once

I'll post the plotline once the players have discovered it.

 

Anyhow, I agree that if a power decides to turtle, it'll be hard for anything that isn't a greater power to do anything to that realm.So over the long timescale, you might see the upper planes breaking up into hundreds of demiplane-like realms in some sort of ideological wasteland left over when any regions that hadn't been claimed by a power have been converted to evil. I also think that over very long times, the necessities of sealing up one's realm like that would have weird consequences on the Prime - petitioners intercepted before they can arrive, less divine presence or intervention on the Prime (perhaps to the extent that clerics of good deities find their powers significantly reduced, but clerics of evil deities remain as potent as before), weirdness like certain spells (speak with dead, contact other plane, what have you) failing outright when directed at good souls, etc. This would dilute faith in the good powers, so over a few decades you'd see those demiplanes popping out of existance one by one as the walls become weak enough for some enterprising evil deity (or even the fiends themselves) to pierce. Of course, thats a longer timescale than this campaign...

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Due to 4e planar changes,

Due to 4e planar changes, the front-page headline of the next Lady's Sharper Eye is "War is Over?"

You want me to post it here (spoiler)?

As a summary of the article, yes the Blood War is over, but it could start up again tomorrow even worse than before.  That leaves it open to anyone's campaign.

P.S. to NichG; you are welcome to write an article for the LSE about fiends invading the uppers.  Check out the last issue, there was an article about celestials mustering for battle.

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