Becoming a Fiend

20 posts / 0 new
Last post
Azriael's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2006-08-07
Becoming a Fiend

Hi all, I had some spare time and got to thinking about an old thread I remember seeing, it basically boiled down to– Why can’t PC’s, (or anyone else for that matter) become fiends? It could be an interesting goal for villains and gives DM’s another of those ever elusive motivating factors for evil PC’s. I’m not that attached to this stuff and came up with it without referring to any sources so throw rocks at will if I’ve just made some stupid assumptions/judgements.

Of course the easy answer to all this is that PC’s can already become fiends by using the tried and tested method-

Step 1- be evil
Step 2- die

I figured this method wouldn’t be too attractive for characters who already had a few levels and didn’t want to have to work their way up from the bottom all over again, especially if that also involved losing your identity. Given Planescape gives us a multiverse of infinite potential I decided to rough out some different routes to fiendhood.

Tanar’ri
This is the easy one (kinda)

Step 1- be very powerful and evil, preferably taking control of an abyssal layer.
Step 2- force those less powerful than you to accept that you are a Tanar’ri.
Step 3- let the power of belief take its course.

Let’s face it, this is basically how tanar’ri change forms to become more powerful and I can’t see a logical reason why a similar method wouldn’t work for mortals. Belief’s a powerful thing.

Baatezu
This is kind of tricky and kind of simple you’d have to play within the rules but twist them to work in your favour (although if you didn’t want to do this there wouldn’t be much point in becoming a Baatezu).

Basically I see this working by striking a deal with a Baatezu that, in exchange for your soul, and whatever other means of influence you can muster, your consciousness is separated from your spirit and then re-attached once you are able to use it again (once you have been promoted to at least lesser Baatezu status)

There’s precedent for skipping past a stage or two anyway so this process shouldn’t take more than a decade or 2 if the contract was worded correctly.
The catches are that

1. You need to convince a devil to agree to create a rival for themself – you’d be significantly more powerful than other devils of your type because of your levels.
2. Your old consciousness would be entering a mind so twisted by it’s time as a fiend that the resulting creature would only technically classify as you. Kind of like how a Vampire in the Buffyverse has all the memories and experiences of the body but is, in fact, a completely different creature.

Yugoloth
This is actually why I began thinking about this subject and it could easily translate itself into game terms. The process is basically one of ‘purification’.

I’ve got a few ideas about a PrC which could allow for this. It’d be based on a combination of the Fiend blooded PrC (HoH) and the Dracolexi PRC (RotD) with mastery of Dark Speech taking the place of Draconic. The character would gradually work at removing from themselves those things which make them human- gradually rendering themselves down, through a combination of mental focus, arcane assistance and mutilation, into a creature which embodies evil. I imagine that Expertise with the Dark Speech would be essential as a catalyst for this change.

This would be a long and involved process, possibly taking the whole campaign to achieve and would involve a huge amount of searching for ancient knowledge and forgotten artefacts. This way requires no reliance on others and puts the emphasis squarely on the character to ‘better’ themselves regardless of the costs.

__________________

"We're making a better world. All of them, better worlds." - Anonomous Harmonium Officer

MakThuumNgatha's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-11-12
Becoming a Fiend

I have to wonder why you believe motivating factors for evil NPCs are elusive; I DM and I find it much easier to create a believable, complicated evil characters than good ones. There are numerous motivations for being evil, the most obvious is obtaining power and this can come in a variety of forms. Of course, vengence, promoting a cause that is detrimental to others (such as nationalism), and the desire for immediate gratification can also take a variety of forms. Misguided, twisted benevolence is a personal favorite. The threat of damnation is actually rather meaningless (for shallow minded villans it is never even considered). Petitioners lose their memories of their past life and all of their acquired skills and knowledge; essentially they lose their ego. Proud, masterminds are notorious for their egos; and a loss of their ego would be equated with the loss of oneself, so it really wouldn't be a point of concern what happens to the non-self that happens to be your soul.

Fiends lack the soul/body dichotomy of mortal creatures, and are essentially a soul given flesh by their plane of origin. This poses many difficulties for a presently embodied soul to become a fiend.

For the Tanar'ri, your plan is solid. But I don't see a mortal ever having enough power to take over a layer for himself (let's agree that the demon lord stats in Fiendish Codex I were for aspects just as was stated to be the case for the archdevils in FC II); considering that Abyssal lords are frequently portrayed, in flavor, as on par with the powers.

For the Baatezu, considering the huge ministry of promotions dedicated to regulating the transition of one caste to another; I don't see any "common" devils (and that includes Pit Fiends) being able to turn you into a baatezu. However, mortals are known to serve within the courts of Hell's nobility. After decades of loyal service, a powerful mortal might be able to persuade one to turn him into a fiend.

It is difficult to say anything for certain regarding the yugoloths; so that might be possible. But actual yugoloths advance through their different castes only with the assistance of other yugoloths. It would be strange for this to be the case but it still being possible for mortals to transform into one without the aid of yugoloths. Also, yugoloths are the only fiendish race that does not come from mortal souls, so this essential difference from the other fiendish races might entirely prevent mortals from becoming one. Covens of night hags have the power to transform a yugoloth into an altraloth; it is certainly possible that such a coven has the means to a turn a human into a fiend of some kind.

Vaevictis Asmadi's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-05-31
Becoming a Fiend

Perhaps a mortal could become a fiend, but not an exemplar. Some other type of fiend instead might be easier than, say, a Yugoloth.

Azriael's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2006-08-07
Becoming a Fiend

Thanks for the feedback guys, some good points although I don't necessarily agree with all of them-

'MakThuumNgatha' wrote:
Petitioners lose their memories of their past life and all of their acquired skills and knowledge.
This was kind of my point - what self respecting BBEG's hubris would allow them to accept that they lose all their skills upon death without a fight? Some try for lichdom but why wouldn't others try to attain the unique abilities of a fiend in their quest for immortality?

'Vaevictis Asmadi' wrote:
Perhaps a mortal could become a fiend, but not an exemplar. Some other type of fiend instead might be easier than, say, a Yugoloth.

Actually this is the one which has precedent in cannon - It's said that if a mortal ever truly understands how a modron thinks then they will become one themselves. I'll have to look up the reference for this but I suspect it's in Planes of Law. Also I'm not necessary stating that a mortal could become a conventional Yugoloth without assistance but that they may be able to aquire the Yugoloth type by promoting that evil which does exist within them and removing everything else thus forcing themselves to embody evil. I see the result as being more of an Altraloth sans night-hags rather than a conventional type.

'MakThuumNgatha' wrote:
I have to wonder why you believe motivating factors for evil NPCs are elusive; I DM and I find it much easier to create a believable, complicated evil characters than good ones.

My group has a fairly rigid idea of what constitutes evil and I didn't realise this until I'd already allowed them to play an evil party. Not much fun ensued since most of them decided to play their characters as "Arch". I may need to find better friends.

Quote:
Fiends lack the soul/body dichotomy of mortal creatures, and are essentially a soul given flesh by their plane of origin. This poses many difficulties for a presently embodied soul to become a fiend.

I disagree that the mortal and Outsider forms are incompatible, I'll site fiendish grafts and the half-modrons in "The great Modron March" as examples. I know this is a bit different but it's not like you can't mix the two. Therefore I don't see why a mortal consciousness couldn't be 'grafted' into a fiend, a brain certainly can be.

Quote:
I don't see any "common" devils (and that includes Pit Fiends) being able to turn you into a baatezu.

I got my ideas regarding this from FC2, not the most of reliable resource I know and I’d be willing to accept that you’d have to make a deal with a very powerful devil to make this possible.

Thanks again for the comments, they really made me think about what I wrote.

__________________

"We're making a better world. All of them, better worlds." - Anonomous Harmonium Officer

Zimrazim's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2007-01-14
Becoming a Fiend

So much to respond to here.

First, Paul S. Kemp's novel "Resurrection." Personally I wouldn't consider much of the more recent Forgotten Realms content to make decent Planescape canon (especially in the minds of hardcore fans), but there is a passage here that indicates that larvae can be transformed into yugoloths. So, if you want to use that as your source rather than Faces of Evil, a petitioner could become a yugoloth.

Personally I prefer the Faces of Evil view of yugoloths as a 'pure' race that don't come directly from mortal souls. If a mortal really, really wanted to become a yugoloth, he'd have to die, have his soul end up in Loth Country, then eventually merge with the plane (after plenty of torment). In the same sense that people are made out of trees or furry woodland creatures (since our component atoms might easily have been one or the other at some point), yugoloths could be made from bits and pieces of mortal soulstuff.

I would say it's entirely possible for especially evil mortals to become 'infernally tainted' (as tieflings already are by birth) and to produce plane-touched children. Becoming a blackguard, serving evil gods, handling especially nasty evil artifacts, living too long on a nasty part of a Lower Plane, etc.

In general, I wouldn't really like to see living mortals be able to transform into fiends (or other planeborne races), in the same way that they can become (for example) liches. I think it would reduce the atmosphere of the Outer Planes as 'the other side,' i.e. the planes of the afterlife.

Fiends/other planeborne are also TOTALLY tied to the alignment and precepts of their plane and race... which is much more limiting than it sounds. (Look at the characters in some of Kemp's novels. Even Riven, who mostly comes off as a heartless 'I'm such a bad boy' villain, has a soft-hearted love for his dogs.) Erevis Cale has plenty of moral struggle going on. Planeborne don't have the same kind of complexity. That's not to say that they're stupid, or colorless or boring -- but they are *solidly* tied to that alignment. I don't see living D&D mortals as being capable of the completely heartless, dispassionate evil of a yugoloth (or the raging, anarchic evil of a tanar'ri, etc.). Tanar'ri are incapable of behaving lawfully, even when it's to their advantage to do so. Same for baatezu and chaos.

As for individual villains -- there are already lots of ways for sufficiently motivated villains to not die of old age. Becoming a lich. Displacing someone else's soul and stealing their body (didn't a mentor of Raistlin do this?). Becoming a Prolonger. Becoming an Incantifier (I think). Various fountain-of-youth variants.

__________________

BoGr Guide to Missile Combat:
1) Equip a bow or crossbow.
2) Roll a natural 1 on d20.
3) ?????
4) Profit!

MakThuumNgatha's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-11-12
Becoming a Fiend

'Zimrazim' wrote:
I would say it's entirely possible for especially evil mortals to become 'infernally tainted' (as tieflings already are by birth) and to produce plane-touched children. Becoming a blackguard, serving evil gods, handling especially nasty evil artifacts, living too long on a nasty part of a Lower Plane, etc.

Are you (directed to both Zimrazim and Azriael) familiar with the "lasting effects of evil" (or whatever they are called) in the Book of Vile Darkness?

Quote:
In general, I wouldn't really like to see living mortals be able to transform into fiends (or other planeborne races), in the same way that they can become (for example) liches. I think it would reduce the atmosphere of the Outer Planes as 'the other side,' i.e. the planes of the afterlife.

This is a very good point. Planescape has already significantly blurred the distinction between mortal and immortal. Allowing mortals to become fiends would further this. I think more would be lost than gained by allowing this to occur.

Quote:
Tanar'ri are incapable of behaving lawfully, even when it's to their advantage to do so. Same for baatezu and chaos.

Actually Faces of Evil says that some baatezu do turn stag and become chaotic. Tanar'ri are also capable of behaving lawfully. Of course for both, these are 1 in a billion occurences.

Clueless's picture
Offline
Webmonkey
Joined: 2008-06-30
Becoming a Fiend

They would seem to be incapable of doing either and remaining what they were. Much as celestials have trouble remaining celestials if they turn evil, or fiends remaining fiends if they turn good. I wouldn't outright forbid it as the concept of rising/falling exists on the Law/Chaos end of things too. (And where would the Asura be without that ability to fall?)

Zimrazim's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2007-01-14
Becoming a Fiend

Quote:
Are you (directed to both Zimrazim and Azriael) familiar with the "lasting effects of evil" (or whatever they are called) in the Book of Vile Darkness?

Oddly enough, I have Faces of Evil, but not a copy of the BoVD. I should fix that. Laughing out loud

Quote:
Actually Faces of Evil says that some baatezu do turn stag and become chaotic. Tanar'ri are also capable of behaving lawfully. Of course for both, these are 1 in a billion occurences.

Agree. On extremely rare occasions, an exemplar may exhibit characteristics of another alignment. But, in general, they're almost iconic representatives of their alignments, largely lacking in the good/evil or law/chaos variations mortals normally possess.

__________________

BoGr Guide to Missile Combat:
1) Equip a bow or crossbow.
2) Roll a natural 1 on d20.
3) ?????
4) Profit!

Azriael's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2006-08-07
Becoming a Fiend

Quote:
Of course for both, these are 1 in a billion occurences.
Yup but so are a lot of character concepts, PC's are unique, 1 in a billion individuals which is why people want to play them. I know this explanation gets used a lot but it's a good one - people often want to push the envelope with their character.

Quote:
Are you (directed to both Zimrazim and Azriael) familiar with the "lasting effects of evil" (or whatever they are called) in the Book of Vile Darkness?
I've read it and own it but can't remember the details, I tend to use the rules in Heroes of Horror instead.

Quote:
But I don't see a mortal ever having enough power to take over a layer for himself (let's agree that the demon lord stats in Fiendish Codex I were for aspects just as was stated to be the case for the archdevils in FC II); considering that Abyssal lords are frequently portrayed, in flavor, as on par with the powers.
I agree with the last part of this statement, however not all Abyssal lords are created equal and some layers are without one anyway. It's certainly within reason that an epic level, and very lucky, mortal could find one of these layers and set up shop. I mean humans can become gods in D&D, why not abyssal lords!

Something which also needs to be taken into account is heritage- every damn character that pops up now days seems to have traces of something in their family tree, be it an outsider, dragon, aberration, fey, god, flying spaghetti monster, etc. These things are built in to all sorts of feats, PRC's and standard classes (notably the Sorceror & Warlock) and might influence a characters ability to change types.

btw, it's worth noting that a number of classes (notably the monk) already allow you to become an outsider at high ranks so I'd question the assumption that a humanoid's body/soul dichotomy renders it incapable of making the change.

__________________

"We're making a better world. All of them, better worlds." - Anonomous Harmonium Officer

Fidrikon's picture
Offline
Factor
Joined: 2004-12-19
Becoming a Fiend

There is another approach... Actual metamorphisis into a fiend, while impressive, would be incredibly difficult. A simple, only slightly less effective method would be a a high level Telepath manifesting a True Mind Switch.

They wont get the supernatural or spell like abilities, but with a little planing, a Psion can steal a body with natural armor, spell resistance, regeneration, and physical ability scores considerably superior to what a class that focuses on the power of the mind is likely to have. Oh, and they don't age and if they play their cards right will reform on their bodies home plan if some lucky SOB manages to kill them. All in all, not a bad goal.

Azriael's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2006-08-07
Becoming a Fiend

Before I forget again the flipside of all this is whether PC's can become a Celestial/other outsider by a similar method of refinement. Obviously you can't do this using some of the underhanded means previously noted (unless you want to immediately become a fallen celestial).

I doubt the Archon's would go for this sort of circumvention of the normal process (although the Hebdomad (sp?) seems to contradict this) but other races might. Indeed I could see Eldarin admiring the single minded rebellion against convention that this might entail.

Oh, and yes I'm aware of the saint template in BoED, it just doesn't suit everyone.

__________________

"We're making a better world. All of them, better worlds." - Anonomous Harmonium Officer

MakThuumNgatha's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-11-12
Becoming a Fiend

Azriael; the comment about the lack of a soul body dualism in outsiders was just something I threw out there. Nothing that I was committed to or necessarily forbid the transformation into a fiend. But yes, upon reflection there are (in addition to monks) many prestige classes that end in transformation into outsiders. So you can toss aside the relevance of what I said.

I block what the BoED says about the origins of the Hebomad from my mind since it makes no sense and is absolutely stupid. Hopefully by tommorow, I will have forgotten it once more and be unable to understand the relevance of your suggestion. However, if a mortal is willing to start at the bottom of a the archon hierarchy I bet the archons, out of the infinite kindness of their hearts, would allow a mortal to advance into a hound archon if he met the same requirements that a lantern archon would need to. It is likely that this would result in the mortal losing their previous identity.

Fidrikon's mention of magic, reminded me of something that previously slipped my mind: epic magic. That is the simplest and surest way to become a fiend (for a wizard at least); craft an epic spell that will transform you into one. It would be quite simple to do this with the "transform" seed.

Azriael's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2006-08-07
Becoming a Fiend

Quote:
However, if a mortal is willing to start at the bottom of a the archon hierarchy I bet the archons, out of the infinite kindness of their hearts, would allow a mortal to advance into a hound archon if he met the same requirements that a lantern archon would need to. It is likely that this would result in the mortal losing their previous identity

I'm not positive but I thought that celestials remembered their previous incarnations as they progressed up the ranks. Modrons do (kinda) so I don't see who Archons wouldn't.

__________________

"We're making a better world. All of them, better worlds." - Anonomous Harmonium Officer

Arytiss's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-08-11
Becoming a Fiend

Picked up my copy of Dragon yesterday. Apparantly the Thralls of Malcanthet gain the ability to transform into a succubuslike creature once per day.

Phonkey's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-03-22
Becoming a Fiend

Although I know it's a little rusty, but i still prefer 2nd edition stuff. when i looked up a spell i remembered reading this discussion, i found out this:

spell: fiendform (wizard's spell compendium II)

"evil spellcaster... blabla... gains form and abilities of a randomly selected creature from the lower planes... "

great. so it is possible to become a kind of fiend for a while. but it goes on:

"...caster slain in fiendform must save vs. deathmagic or be slain [...] (and) reforms as a manes in the abyss..."

so there is a way. not really very comforting, but at least a way.

but one sentence in azriaels first comment is my favourite: it's all upon belief. if somebody really really really beliefs he could become a fiend... why not. nobody and nothing can stop how the planes are working. at last not until now... we'll see...

Moral-Decay's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2007-02-22
Becoming a Fiend

This is interesting. I was thinking about evil beliefs as they relate to the afterlife. Many villians must have their own thoughts about rewards in the next world.

The Abyss can offer great rewards for a truly Chaotic Evil individual. I'm taking as the model here someone who believes in strength, defiance and bloody revenge, worshiping destruction as the greatest force in the planes. Petitioners take the form of destructive entities who can develop into great fiends through personal strength. Few would ever reach Demon Prince or balor status. But devout friends of the Abyss would either see themselves as fated to succeed, or embrace the chance to die spitting at mercy and the Powers a second time.

The Nine Hells used to offer a rough lawful equivalent. Everyone who followed the True Law became natives of the Hells and joined the most superior race. Not only that, they joined a powerful army that would dwarf even its brain-eating mortal counterpart. Again, probably few would reach the rank of invulnerable slug-archfiend, but devoted followers of LE would either have faith in their backstabbing skills or would eagerly give their second lives for justice and the glory of Hell.

The Gray Waste has nothing to offer anyone except the suggestion that its despair will one day engulf all the planes. But the yugoloths have now given its larvae control of Baator. The Waste might offer the quickest path to power in the Abyss as well. This still doesn't provide a strong reason to go there after death, but it does weaken the reasons to avoid it.

Alder_Fiter_Galaz's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2007-03-07
Becoming a Fiend

I think becoming a interesting fiend is an evil quest for a epic villain.

I can imagine a less than epic character becoming a fiend the way he wants.

Most evil creatures are converted into larvas, manes and other sorts or lesser fiends. Even when a powerful fiend agreeds into convert a character into a fiend, that not means that he or she really converts you into the fiend you wants.

The process must be so unique and secret that only with a epic check you will be able to get such information.

Maybe possesion is a easy way to become near to a fiend, or a truly evil life like one of a blackguard serving in Baator.

Indeedm technically speaking a character only need to get the outsider(evil) trait to become a fiend.

Another hystory is if a character want to convert into a certain type of fiend.

Hymneth's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-08-01
Becoming a Fiend

I think that long term posession would be an interesting step in the process. Possibly even physically merging with a fiend and allowing the fiend partial control. Slowly try to allow more and more of the physical elements of the fiend to seep into the body while mentally subduing the fiend. It might just be possible to eventually drive the fiend's mind into oblivion while fully accepting the fiend's physical body. I imagine the end result would be an imperfect and less powerful version of the original creature which would probably be reviled by its brethren unless it could somehow prove itself.

Elethíus's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-05-11
Becoming a Fiend

Didn't Tome and Blood have a PrC that was focussed on the merging with the skin of a fiend (the Acolyte of the Skin, or somesuch)? If I recall correctly, the result of such a merging would only be a half-fiend, but something like that would be a good start if you'd wanna become a fiend without, y'know, dying.

Armoury99's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-08-30
Becoming a Fiend

'Hymneth' wrote:
I think that long term posession would be an interesting step in the process. Possibly even physically merging with a fiend and allowing the fiend partial control. Slowly try to allow more and more of the physical elements of the fiend to seep into the body while mentally subduing the fiend.

2e Ravenloft had a similar thing called transposition (gradual 'swap' bewteen Fiend and mortal - with the poor berk eventually ending up wherever the fiend was and the fiend in Ravenloft), similar to the Acolyte of the Skin prestige class mentioned above.

I'd also think that (big maybe) there might even be some potential in the Reincarnation spell if you fit the alignment profile of the plane you are on. That fits with the kharmic wheel principle.

Planescape, Dungeons & Dragons, their logos, Wizards of the Coast, and the Wizards of the Coast logo are ©2008, Wizards of the Coast, a subsidiary of Hasbro Inc. and used with permission.