Beating a dead Arcadian Pony

Just to clear things up (without getting back into this mess, Kaelyn and Bob are doing admirably in my stead):

Druidic feats from Eberron do not represent membership. Eberron features something like five major sects of druids in a region called the Eldeen Reaches. For example, one sect is called the Children of Winter, and it has a feat associated with it for druids that belong to it called Child of Winter. There is also a prestige class called Eldeen Ranger for rangers who belong to one of these sects. Neither the feat nor the prestige class is required to be a member, nor does the feat include any particular drawback.

Is this argument really all about that one feat Manic-Depressive? If the Bleakers knew how much was being made about one feat, they'd probably weep, if they could be moved to care at all.
It really gives some mixed bonuses and minuses. Just think of it like Power Attack. You get some advantage, but in order to do so, you willingly accept a penalty. The difference is that this one doesn't turn on and off.

The madness points from the Bleaker feats are a good example of this. So is the voluntary poverty of the Ring-Giver feats.

If templates only apply to races, then explain the following two templates:

Chosen of Mystra

Lycanthrope: "When a character contracts lycanthropy through a lychathrope's bite (see above), no symptoms appear until the first night of the next full moon." - MM, p. 178

And how do these work to your advantage?

It's not a disadvantage in that you are not banned from these schools where you must select banned schools when you specialize as a wizard. Additionally, Shadow Weave magic is indetectable by those who do not know how to use it.

You asked for an example of a feat that *combined* an advantage and a disadvantage. You didn't ask for a *large* disadvantage in a feat - you asked for *any* feat example in WotC 3.5 releases that showed a combination of advantage and disadvantage in a single feat.

A -1 caster level is a disadvantage.

And don't you dare expect me to accept that it's not because you can take something to 'fix' it. I am not stupid. If you have to take something else to fix it, then that is a disadvantage. I am extremely nearsighted. I can wear glasses to correct this - but this does *not* negate the fact that I *am* nearsighted, blind as a bat in the morning, and not allowed by military standards to fly a fighter jet.

Unless you can explain to me *exactly* how having a -1 to your caster level is a hidden advantage, without bringing in other unrelated feats - or the advantage paired in the feat with the -1, you have lost this point. You asked to see a feat that combined advantage and disadvantage. You were shown one. If you can't do that then find a different arguement because this one isn't going to work.

Actually, I did answer this. You aren't barred for specialization through this feat. Yes, you have a -1 to two schools of magic, I didn't argue that it wasn't a penalty in that regard. I stated that you are not barred like other specialist wizards, yet you receive a +1 to three schools in return. While the -1 can be a pain in the rear, it does not prevent you from casting spells in that school. Other than light spells, there are no barred spells for the caster. Specialists wizards lose access to two schools in order to gain 1 additonal spell a day per spell level in one school. In many ways, the feat in question resembles specalizing without actually specializing.

Oops, forgot to add...Shadow Weave weilders can cast spells normally regardless of whether an area is considered a "dead magic" area. Casters who work through the Weave are not so fortunate. Seems like a really large advantage.

They're not different at all. You could even call them belief points, and they'd still be the same in every way. I didn't realize you wanted to know how they were different from belief points, or I would have told you that earlier.

What you asked was "know any disadvantages that enable you to do something beneficial?" The feats I mentioned above are good examples of this.

Lets start with your words Xan. Nothing being put into your mouth. Direct quotes other than some color and boldface added by me for my later answer to your words.

The above I remind you is your words. Out of your mouth. Do you deny that you posted these?

All right. If you want ME to show it to you. Here you go.

Now the idea here is if I can show you a feat that provides both an advantage and disadvantage that was published by WOTC for the 3.5 edition of D&D then Planewalker's official use of feats with drawbacks and advantages would be fine by you as fair game for use in Planewalker.

Shadow Weave Magic

Benefit: Access to use the Shadow Weave. This allows some spells to be harder to detect and other feats and advantages.

Drawback: In 3.5, the Shadow Weave Magic feat imposes a -1 effective caster level penalty on evocations/transmutations.

This penalty is always present as long as the feat is connected to the character. The character might be able to raise their caster level for those schools but this feat would still reduce the total effective level for those schools by -1 when compared to the same combination of feats minus the Shadow Weave feat.

I have fulfilled your demands of me oh mighty emperor.
Enjoy
:twisted:

Xan. Specialization has a benefit and drawback built in. You wanted a feat that had both a benefit and drawback. It has both. It doesn't matter that it acts like something else that is not a feat. It still has both.

PS the penalties STACK with specialization. Thus it is more than specialization too.

Your wrong. You have lost. Admit it or keep being a poor loser.

I didn't argue the balance issue nor did I argue that there wasn't a disadvantage in the feat. I merely pointed out how you aren't barred from schools of magic through this feat as you are through specialization. To me, that's not an outright penalty. The rules for the Bleaker melancholia as part of a feat is an example of an outright penalty that's detrimental to a character.

Because you never would have gotten the point I've been trying to make. Every so-called negative I've been presented with as proof that I'm wrong has been clearly demonstrated to not be as negative as they appear on close inspection. Faction drawbacks, on the other hand, are that negative. Bleakers have no control over their mood swings. That makes it a huge uncertaincy, not to mention the probabilty factor is something I've never seen in a feat.

In otherwords negatives only count if you say so in your mind.

Xan. You are unreasonable.

No, you got the meaning right.

And how does this contribute to the debate? I let Gezrel's "loser" comment slide because it's obvious that the point was missed.

Technically Gerzel said he was behaving like a "poor loser" as opposed to saying he was a "loser" - which has a much different conotation to it as a phrase.

Ah, but there's a problem with your analogy. The so-called penalty serves a purpose in directing specialists in Forgotten Reamls as to which two schools they should abandon in pursuit of a greater magical stealth. What's harder to detect, necromantic spells using the Weave, or necromantic specialists working through the Shadow Weave?

Since you specialize during character creation and must have Shar as your patron deity to take the feat, how's there a penalty if you drop the two penalized schools from the moment the character's created?

The requirment for Shadow Weave Magic is Wis 15+ or patron diety Shar.
Or means one or the other, not nessasarilly both.

Oh and not everyone drops those schools. So the penalty is still there. It doesn't matter if some people can weasle out of it at character creation. If they take the feat after character creation (Which yes they can) they get penalized. Those with those schools droped still get penalized as they still have the minuses they just don't notice. The minuses are still there.

Xan I really don't know why I'm posting this. The only thing I can figure is that somewhere I don't want to belive that you are so unreasonable that you cannot accept the fact that you've lost and if every possability is exausted you will finally see that you have lost. This last post of yours was based on one falsehood (You do not have to have Shar as a Patron to use Shadow Weave Magic) and one really narrow loophole (A few PCs can weasle out of the negative by NEVER using those spells affected).