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Bariaur in PS 3.x?

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Fri, 2005-05-27 13:49
#1
Anarch
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Bariaur in PS 3.x?

I'm a little curious about the bariaur in the PSCS being put online, specifically why they're ECL +5 as opposed to the MoTP (3.x) in which they're only LA +1. I mean, I understand why this is the case numerically; what I don't understand is the design decision in the PSCS to make them a) so radically different from the MoTP and, more importantly, b) so radically more powerful than the other standard races. Is there anyone who understands the process who could explain that to me?

Incidentally, secondary question: when will the PSCS be brought in line with 3.5? Or will it ever officially be brought in line with 3.5? I'm specifically wondering about the Skills which seem more incompatible with 3.5 than usual...

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Sat, 2005-05-28 04:22
#2
Nemui
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Bariaur in PS 3.x?

The version in the rtf is the one from Book of Exalted Deeds, which I dislike. Fortunately, Planar Handbook came out later, and returned the bariaur to their Manual of the Planes incarnation. Hopefully, PSCS will eventually rectify this as well.

BTW, there's a sidebar in Planar Handbook saying basically "Sorry about the BoED bariaur; if you want, you can think of them as an alternate, exalted version of the creature."

Sat, 2005-05-28 04:30
(Reply to #2) #3
Nemui
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Re: Bariaur in PS 3.x?

"Anarch" wrote:
Incidentally, secondary question: when will the PSCS be brought in line with 3.5? Or will it ever officially be brought in line with 3.5? I'm specifically wondering about the Skills which seem more incompatible with 3.5 than usual...

Yeah, I was wondering about that too...

For my campaign, I rewrote most of the feats to make them v3.5-compliant (plus a few changes here and there), and since most of the skills were somewhat redundant IMO, I dropped Control, Planar Expertise, and the divided Knowledge (the planes). You can find my version of the Limbo-controlling skill here.

I don't know what to do about Wilderness Lore/Survival. Some sort of modifier-by-plane may be a good idea, but I don't see how this can be implemented when some of the planar environments vary wildly.

Edit: High-ups, would it be OK if I post my edited version of some PSCS Chapter IV feats to the House Rule section of the site?

Sat, 2005-05-28 09:38
(Reply to #3) #4
Clueless
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Bariaur in PS 3.x?

Drop it by with moogle001 (PM) actually and it'll probably go into the PSCS releases themselves. The thing to remember with a lot of our work is that it was written before 3.5 ever came out. The editions changed mid-writing and a good deal of our previous PSCS writers are out of contact (or getting masters degrees and therfore have no time). We're wrapping up some less rule orriented writing right now before going back in for a 3.5 rewrite.

Sat, 2005-05-28 19:19
(Reply to #4) #5
Anarch
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Re: Bariaur in PS 3.x?

"Nemui" wrote:
For my campaign, I rewrote most of the feats to make them v3.5-compliant (plus a few changes here and there), and since most of the skills were somewhat redundant IMO, I dropped Control, Planar Expertise, and the divided Knowledge (the planes).

I liked Control, since it functions on any sufficiently malleable plane -- Limbo, the Ethereal, potentially the Astral and a few others -- but your Chaos-Shaping skill is good too. I think Planar Expertise is a good idea, but I would have preferred it to be rolled in with Control somehow. As for Knowledge (the planes)... basically, I had to invent some new mechanics to make that thing work as I wanted it [essentially, hierarchical classing for Skills]. It works well enough but it's something of a hack.

Quote:
I don't know what to do about Wilderness Lore/Survival. Some sort of modifier-by-plane may be a good idea, but I don't see how this can be implemented when some of the planar environments vary wildly.

I think those would be better represented by feats than by Skills; something like "You may apply your Knowledge (nature) and Survival skills while on this plane."

Changing topics slightly: I'm a big fan of giving people minor feats to represent major accomplishments beyond the usual XP, e.g. giving someone Iron Will for having resisted fiendish torturers. Is it common? Or do other people regard Feats as rare and to be handed out only upon levelling?

"Clueless" wrote:
The editions changed mid-writing and a good deal of our previous PSCS writers are out of contact (or getting masters degrees and therfore have no time).

Feh. Some of us are getting our PhDs and you don't see us complaining about not having any time! Of course, you also don't see us working and we haven't made any progress in several years; there could be a correlation there.

Sat, 2005-05-28 22:39
(Reply to #5) #6
Rhys
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Bariaur in PS 3.x?

It seems to me that adding skills retroactively is dangerous practice. What I think works better than the Control skill is a feat that keys off of your Wisdom score to stabilize planes around you. Sure, 3e has an overabundance of feats, but this seems to be just what feats are good for. And the name "Control," while keeping it more open-ended than "Limbo Control," is rather general. Skill names ought to be just specific enough to cover everything they're used for. How about something like "Control Plane" or "Shape Plane"?

Sun, 2005-05-29 17:25
(Reply to #6) #7
Nemui
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Bariaur in PS 3.x?

@Anarch:

IMO, a single skill just doesn't cut it for manipulating morphic planes. Altering the ethereal or astral is/should be very different from controlling the soup of Limbo.

Regarding the feats, I would rather give out conditional and/or temporary modifiers than feats. In your example I would give the character something like a +2 bonus on Will saves against fiendish Sp and Su abilities, and if he wants Iron Will (one of my favorite feats, incidentally) he can just select it himself at the right level.

Sun, 2005-05-29 22:34
(Reply to #7) #8
Anarch
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Bariaur in PS 3.x?

"Nemui" wrote:
IMO, a single skill just doesn't cut it for manipulating morphic planes. Altering the ethereal or astral is/should be very different from controlling the soup of Limbo.

I can't remember the details right now, but I cobbled together something like this: there's a single skill for manipulating morphic planes. Actually manipulating morphic planes, however, necessitates the acquisition of various feats. People who take Control can, upon first putting ranks into the skill, pick one morphic plane to control (i.e. automatically obtain the "Manipulate Morphic Plane" feat for the given plane); the later feats allow one to control other planes, to enhance one's control of a given plane, and so forth.

That was variant #1. The other variant was much the same as my solution to Knowledge: hierarchically classing the notion of skills. Similar underpinnings, different executions. You could go further and have three (or however many) completely different skills but that seemed to me too far in the other direction; there would have to be certain similarities about manipulating morphic planes that would allow greater synergy than a mere "+2 synergy bonus at 5 ranks" schtick.

Quote:
Regarding the feats, I would rather give out conditional and/or temporary modifiers than feats. In your example I would give the character something like a +2 bonus on Will saves against fiendish Sp and Su abilities

...which is, de facto, a feat. At least, it's easier to simply call it a feat than anything else in the present D&D system.

Quote:
...and if he wants Iron Will (one of my favorite feats, incidentally) he can just select it himself at the right level.

Yeah, that would make more sense; I was spouting off the top of my head so Iron Will was just something that came to mind as an easy example. If you've ever played Fallout, I regard "Feats" as the D&D equivalent of "Perks"; most Perks were gained upon levelling, but some were circumstantial or otherwise earned through various actions independent of levelling. Again, it's easiest simply to call these abilities "Feats" rather than anything else, although it would necessitate a new subclass of Feat to properly integrate into the D&D mechanic. I'd call them "Feat (Earned)" or something similar if push came to shove.

[BTW, why is Iron Will one of your favorites?]

Mon, 2005-05-30 07:17
(Reply to #8) #9
Nemui
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Bariaur in PS 3.x?

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BTW, why is Iron Will one of your favorites?

Because IMGs, effects that call for a Will save seem to come up much more often than the Fort/Ref ones, on both the PC and the NPC side. Not to mention that in most cases, when you fail a Will save, you're pretty much out of the game, while failing Fort or Ref usually means just more damage (disintegration and instakill effects not withstanding).

/OT

Mon, 2005-05-30 09:46
(Reply to #9) #10
Krypter
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Re: Bariaur in PS 3.x?

"Anarch" wrote:
Changing topics slightly: I'm a big fan of giving people minor feats to represent major accomplishments beyond the usual XP, e.g. giving someone Iron Will for having resisted fiendish torturers. Is it common? Or do other people regard Feats as rare and to be handed out only upon levelling?

I do that sometimes. I also give out skill points spontaneously for really good roleplaying or major accomplishments. Then again, I also drop skills and attributes during a game if circumstances warrant. Feats are supposed to be rare in D&D, but I use a modified d20 system where they're more common, and less powerful.

The players seem to like it. Many a time have they spoken thus: "What?! I thought my Strength was +4, why is it +3? Oh yeah, that was that time the poison demon bit into my arm...crap." Eye-wink

It makes for more memorable character development rather than number-crunching for highest numerical advantage when you level up.

Mon, 2005-07-25 11:20
(Reply to #10) #11
moogle001
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Bariaur in PS 3.x?

'Anarch' wrote:
I'm a little curious about the bariaur in the PSCS being put online, specifically why they're ECL +5 as opposed to the MoTP (3.x) in which they're only LA +1. I mean, I understand why this is the case numerically; what I don't understand is the design decision in the PSCS to make them a) so radically different from the MoTP and, more importantly, b) so radically more powerful than the other standard races. Is there anyone who understands the process who could explain that to me?

Well, it always seemed odd to me that bariaur would be medium creatures, and their write up in MotP just seemed a little..lacking to me. However, I would not overly be opposed to switching them back

'Anarch' wrote:
Incidentally, secondary question: when will the PSCS be brought in line with 3.5? Or will it ever officially be brought in line with 3.5? I'm specifically wondering about the Skills which seem more incompatible with 3.5 than usual...

To be honest, i've had conversions to 3.5 for Chapters 2 and 4 on my desk for a long time, including a COMPLETE rewriting of the feats pending a great deal of debate among the staff a long time back. I guess I've been leary about another "update" to the mechanics, however.

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Mon, 2005-07-25 11:21
(Reply to #11) #12
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Bariaur in PS 3.x?

'Rhys' wrote:
It seems to me that adding skills retroactively is dangerous practice. What I think works better than the Control skill is a feat that keys off of your Wisdom score to stabilize planes around you. Sure, 3e has an overabundance of feats, but this seems to be just what feats are good for. And the name "Control," while keeping it more open-ended than "Limbo Control," is rather general. Skill names ought to be just specific enough to cover everything they're used for. How about something like "Control Plane" or "Shape Plane"?

The Control skill was never intended to be limited to just controlling morphic planes, though that's definitely the biggest one. But it also replaces the skill that lets lycanthropes control their shape, and anything else the DM can think of *shrug*.

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Mon, 2005-07-25 11:22
(Reply to #12) #13
Clueless
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Bariaur in PS 3.x?

Perhaps post it up here for a review by forumites? Or pass it along to me and I'll take a look - or was it something you'd already passed along?

Mon, 2005-07-25 15:59
(Reply to #13) #14
Bob the Efreet
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Bariaur in PS 3.x?

'moogle001' wrote:
To be honest, i've had conversions to 3.5 for Chapters 2 and 4 on my desk for a long time, including a COMPLETE rewriting of the feats pending a great deal of debate among the staff a long time back. I guess I've been leary about another "update" to the mechanics, however.

I wouldn't mind seeing this stuff.

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Tue, 2005-07-26 12:41
(Reply to #14) #15
Nemui
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Bariaur in PS 3.x?

'Bob the Efreet' wrote:
'moogle001' wrote:
To be honest, i've had conversions to 3.5 for Chapters 2 and 4 on my desk for a long time

I wouldn't mind seeing this stuff.

Me too, actually.

In the meantime, here's how I updated the PS feats to 3.5. I didn't send it to the site so as not to step on any high-up toes, but I guess it would be OK here. Comments are welcome.

http://members.fortunecity.com/iceageco/psdocs/PS3E_4_35E.zip

Sun, 2005-07-31 15:06
(Reply to #15) #16
Korimyr the Rat
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Bariaur in PS 3.x?

'Rhys' wrote:
It seems to me that adding skills retroactively is dangerous practice. What I think works better than the Control skill is a feat that keys off of your Wisdom score to stabilize planes around you.

I've been thinking of using a feat that allows you to use your Concentration skill. Githzerai's Favored Class is Monk, after all-- and Monks don't have any other use for Concentration.

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