Baatorian Hierarchy

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Iavas's picture
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Baatorian Hierarchy

I became interested in D&D after 3e came out, so while I am much more fond of 2e Planescape descriptions and storylines (which are far richer than anything 3e or 3.5e have yet offered, though they have come close with the Fiendish Codexes), I am oblivious to the actual 2e gameplay mechanics.

When it comes to the hierarchy of Hell, I much prefer the explained and therefore logical progression that is detailed in the 2e Faces of Evil - The Fiends than that which is reordered, sans any explanation but challenege rating, and presented in 3.5e Fiendish Codex 2 - Tyrants of Hell. As a personal choice, I prefer to stick with the 2e hierarchy in my own campaigns.

This leads to somewhat of a problem concerning stats. Why, for instance, is a Gelugon, one step away from being a Pit Fiend, so much weaker than the Cornugons that should be under it? Granted, it could be the case of more political power but less physical power, but from what I could gather from the 2e stats, this was not the case. Likewise, why are Amnizu, almost equal to a Pit Fiend in power, even if they do require demotion to be promoted, only CR 7!?

Thus, what I'm finally getting to is this: could anybody suggest some stat conversions for the 2e Baatezu that make more sense given the original hierarchy, maybe even some that retain the Pit Fiends polymorph ability? I found a few different Amnizu on this site, but stats are not really my forte and I was hoping that somebody could recommend a whole set of the complete Baatorian hierarchy.

Azriael's picture
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Baatorian Hierarchy

Actually, as you thought, the current stats make sense for political reasons- yes the Cornugon is physically more powerful than the Gelugon but this is a sideways step in the hierarchy - it's an insult dressed as an honour. Promotion to Cornugon means that you have little chance of ever making any more of yourself since you'll either be assigned guard duty or sent into a blood war skirmish. Gelugons get to spend their time contemplating and striving to achieve perfection so while they are less combat oriented they are far closer to the top (or bottom depending on your perspective) than they appear.

I believe Amnizu are another special case - Levestus(sp?) promotes devils to this level to be his little helpers and puts them outside the normal progression. While on his layer they could conceivably boss around a pit-fiend but they can never progress beyond this point without first being demoted to a lower station.

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Iavas's picture
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Baatorian Hierarchy

Right, but weren't Gelugons originally more powerful than Cornugons in 2e rules? As I said, I suck at stats. If you're good at them, would you say that the WotC 3.5e stats fit well the 2e Hierarchy?

MakThuumNgatha's picture
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Baatorian Hierarchy

Gelugons were more powerful than than Cornugons until 3.5 (even at 3.0). Amnizu used to have a power level that fit with their ranking. I greatly prefer the 2e progression (which is what I use). You can find 3.5e conversions that give the gelugons and amnizu CRs that fit with their rank here:

http://www.dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=88

In chapter 4. Amnizu had their name their changed to "barregon" since "amnizu" is copyrighted. They took some liberties and made the barregon/amnizu the naturally evolved form of the nupperbo (though they still fit within the ordinary hiearchy and baatezu can be promoted into that caste), which as they take from Faces of Evil are actually larval ancient baatorians. The fully evolved form of the ancient baatorians are also statted and given the name malefcarim. Abishais have their name changed to "squamagons" for this document.

Iavas's picture
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Baatorian Hierarchy

Thanks, MakThuumNgatha. If I ignore all the stuff in between, the stats for Gelugons and Amnizu are much better, even with some of the extra abilities. I really appreciate it.

If anybody knows of other such conversions, let me know for comparison.

Thanks agian.

MakThuumNgatha's picture
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Baatorian Hierarchy

What were you referring to when you said, "all the stuff in between"?

Here are more conversions: http://www.geocities.com/paranoidus_maximus/creatures.htm

Iavas's picture
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Baatorian Hierarchy

The stuff that deals with that particular campaign, such as MaxHD imps, fallen archon stats, and all of the backstory for the Gates of Hell and Nine Hells of Perdition.

And thank you, I actually like that second link more. Smiling

Caladors's picture
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Baatorian Hierarchy

wouldn;t all of that be resloved in the new fiendish codex?
I have the first but not the second but flicked though it today.

Iavas's picture
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Baatorian Hierarchy

Well, yea, if by resolved you mean altered for no explicable reason. I mean, don't get me wrong, there are plenty of awesome and useful things in FC2, just like there were in the first one, but I tend to ignore useless changes to things like, say, the Baatorian hierarchy. That's hard to do when they change the stats to support it.

EDIT: If anybody likewise knows good conversions for Guardinals, Eladrin, Rilmani, or any other such useful stuff, please post.

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