Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

27 posts / 0 new
Last post
Kobold Avenger's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2005-11-18
Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

There doesn't seem to be an article on either of those pantheons. I'm sort of curious on how the powers of those pantheons would fit into the planes as a whole and where would they be?

I know there's a few mentions of Quetzalcoatl in a few supplements, as him and Tezcatlipoca recently got a short write-up in Dragon magazine. But not much in the way of mentions of others like Tlaloc, Xipe Totec, Mictlantecuhtl, Huitzilopochtli and others.

And to my knowledge there's never been a mention of Afro-Caribbean powers in D&D anywhere. Yeah I know they sort of are considered as just powerful spirits as Loa, and are a mixture of African Gods with Catholic Saints. But where would you fit Baron Samedi, Damballa, and the rest of them?

Jem
Jem's picture
Offline
Factor
Joined: 2006-05-10
Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

When you speak of the Afro-Caribbean powers, bear in mind that there were originally gods native to Africa, with their own identities, myths, and rituals. Their worship was vastly bent out of shape by the conditions under which their worshipers lived in the New World, causing a mixing of ritual and mythical elements with the dominant religion of the slavers, i.e., Christianity.

I would actually make the African gods and the loa separate entities, or almost separate. The original gods were much like any pantheon of spirits for Stone Age tribes, perhaps with slight variations in names or worship across large groups of related cultures in the region. In D&D, they would possibly be one of the oldest stable pantheons in existence, serving primitive tribes in low-tech areas of various game worlds (albeit possibly an area that was once one of the more advanced in historical technology, leading to very raw sorts of "dungeon" ruins: ancient gathering places, forest refuges, cave systems, and the like). Pardon the characterization, but typical worshipers in d20 would be "barbarians" with, of course, clerics of their own.

Worshipers kidnapped from their homes lose touch with much of their religious community, including their holy men, sacred places and communal rituals. If a large-scale slavery movement did not happen in a particular world, perhaps a great disaster cut off a large segment of the base population from their historical home and they had to go wandering. Under such conditions, several things might happen.

First, the gods might continue to look after their children, by splitting off aspects more suited to the harsh conditions of their new lives. In this case, the loa are simply the African gods, but with different names and styles of worship.

Second, opportunistic spirits might seek the lost populations' worship. This would make the loa a wholly new pantheon -- one that has stolen the mantles of the people's original gods, devised more suitable new worsip rites under the guise of adapting old rites to new conditions, and is now collecting energy from believers. At best, they might be self-involved neutrals, and at worst, their gods of death (Samedi), war (Chango), and the like could well be evil deities. On of the literary staples of voodoo is, of course, the raising of zombies, a necessarily evil act in D&D. (In real life, this might have been the traumatic experience of taking a paralytic poison followed by being buried alive for 24 hours, leading to a will-broken obedient servant... but it's not like that's less evil.) From the Outlands or the Lower Planes, this pantheon might seek out primitive tribes in desperate straits and offer their religious guidance, supplanting their previous gods and gaining a lot of devoted worshipers, but making a lot of deific enemies along the way.

Third, the loa might be aspects of the dominant religion of the region -- the captors, if it's a slave movement, or the native of the region to which the castoff population has been thrust, if it was a natural disaster. Legba, god of crossroads, might be an aspect of Fharlangn, Erzulie a wild aspect of Ehlonna, or Venus, or another goddess of love. Elements of the original powers' worship would have crept into the rites, mixed with the forms of the old pantheon.

When talking about the loa, it's flavorful to also consider the magic of voodoo. A houngan, a practitioner of this magic, considers himself an intermediary between spirits and humans, and thus the "Spirit Shaman" from Complete Divine could make an excellent base class to describe this profession. C.J. Carella's Voodoo: The Shadow War is an excellent source for material on the loa and an interpretation of those spirits, and magic strongly based in the real-world traditions of voodoun. It uses GURPS mechanics, but it would not be at all difficult to convert the spells listed there to a d20 spell list that woud suit the flavor of a houngan perhaps more than typical cleric spells. In keeping with real-life magical traditions, houngans don't claim to be able to throw fireballs or whip up a storm on the instant, or even generate a ball of light; however, they do insist they can bless, curse, peer through time and space, heal many ailments, command spirits, exercise uncanny authority over the weak-willed, give orders to nature, erect protections of various kinds, and otherwise possess a spell list fully as useful as that of a standard cleric.

Vaevictis Asmadi's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-05-31
Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

'Jem' wrote:
The original gods were much like any pantheon of spirits for Stone Age tribes, perhaps with slight variations in names or worship across large groups of related cultures in the region. In D&D, they would possibly be one of the oldest stable pantheons in existence, serving primitive tribes in low-tech areas of various game worlds (albeit possibly an area that was once one of the more advanced in historical technology, leading to very raw sorts of "dungeon" ruins: ancient gathering places, forest refuges, cave systems, and the like). Pardon the characterization, but typical worshipers in d20 would be "barbarians" with, of course, clerics of their own.

NO, Sub-Saharan Africa was NOT stone age. The people there had steel tools and weapons, compasses, cities, bronze sculptures, trading ships, and plenty of other technology before the Europeans started the slave trade and colonization that destroyed their civilizations. In fact the Ethiopians were the first people on earth to create carbon steel, or one of the first. Many Westerners have this eroneous idea that Africans were poor benighted backwards people banging rocks together but it is absolutely not true in the slightest. Stone Age people couldn't possibly worship Shango Ogun, the god of blacksmiths!

And the Loa are based mainly on the Orisha who are only the pantheon of part of West Africa. They were hardly the only gods worshiped by all those different cultures!

Duckluck's picture
Offline
Factor
Joined: 2006-10-10
Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

Vaevictus is right, virtually all of Africa was at least at iron age levels, and most of the larger groups pretty much kept pace with Europe until the Slave Trade got going and wound up destroying the economies and depleting the populations of the West African kingdoms that traded in slaves. The end result was the collapse of many of West Africa's institutions and kingdoms, and the situation only got worse when the Europeans started colonising in earnest. Interestingly, East Africa did a bit better, and Ethiopia was able to survive colonialism intact (because they beat the crap out of the Italians).

Sorry for the history lesson, but if we truly want to write up a list of their gods, we'd better have an idea of how they lived that is at least somewhat related to reality.

Kobold Avenger's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2005-11-18
Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

Taken from wikipedia about the Orisha:

Quote:
The Orisha pantheon include Shango, Olokun, Ifá, Yemoja, Osun, Obatala, Ogun, Ochosi, Oko, Soponna, Oya and Esu|Legba, among countless others. The Yoruba also venerate their Egungun, or Ancestors, Ibeji, god of Twins (which is no wonder since the Yoruba have the world's highest incidence of twin births of any group).

[edit] Partial List of Orishas

* Babalu Aye - deity of disease and illness.
* Eshu (Ellegua, Exú, Esu, Elegba, Legbara, Papa Legba) - messenger between human and divine, god of crossroads, also a phallic and fertility god
* Nana - female deity of creation, sky mother, associated with the moon.
* Obatala (Obatalá, Oxalá, Orixalá, Orisainlá) - father of orishas and humankind
* Ogoun (Ogúm, Ogum, Ogou) - deity of iron, war, labour, and technology (e.g. railroads)
* Olorun (Oldumare) - creator of the universe, sky father
* Orunmila - deity of wisdom, divination and foresight
* Oshun (Oshún, Ọṣun, Oxum, Ochun, Osun, Oschun, Erzulie, Erzulie Freda) - goddess of rivers, love, fertility, and art
* Oxossi (Oxósse, Ocshosi, Osoosi, Ochosi) - hunter and the scout of the orishas
* Oya (Oyá, Oiá, Iansã, Yansá, Iansan) - goddess of wind, hurricanes, and underworld gates
* Shango (Shangó, Xango, Changó, Chango, Nago Shango) - warrior god of thunder, fire, sky father
* Iemanjá (Imanja, Yemaja, Jemanja, Yemalla, Yemana, Yemanja, Yemaya, Yemayah, Yemoja, Ymoja, Nanã, La Sirène, LaSiren, Mami Wata) - divine mother goddess, divine goddess of the sea and Mother of mankind
* Ozain (Osain) - He owns the Omiero, a holy liquid consisting of many herbs, liquid through which all Saints and ceremonies have to go through. Ozain owns the herbs, is a natural healer.
* Agayu - Father of Shango he is also said to be shango's brother in other stories, Agayu is said to be the orisha of volcanoes and the desert.

The number of Loa from the Wikipedia:
Quote:
* Adjassou-Linguetor * Adjinakou * Adya Houn'tò * Agassou * Agwe * Ayida-Weddo * Ayizan * Azaka-Tonnerre * Bacalou * Badessy * Baron Samedi * Boli Shah * Bossou Ashadeh * Boum'ba Maza * Bugid Y Aiba * Captain Debas * Clermeil * Congo * Damballa * Dan Petro * Dan Wédo * Diable Tonnere * Diejuste * Dinclinsin * Erzulie * Ghede * Gran Maître * Grand Bois * Guinee * Kalfu * Lemba * Limba * L'inglesou * Loco * Mademoiselle Charlotte * Mait' Carrefour * Maîtresse Délai * Maîtresse Hounon'gon * Maman Brigitte * Marassa * Marassa Jumeaux * Marinette * Mombu * Mounanchou * Nago Shango * Ogoun * Papa Legba * Pie * Simbi * Sobo * Sousson-Pannan * Ti Jean Quinto * Ti Malice * Ti-Jean Petro
Incidentally accord to that, Baron Samedi is one of the Loa that does not have a Yoruban Orisha counterpart.

And as for the idea of Loa being a hidden religion among other pantheons in other worlds, it's actually an intriguing one.

Vaevictis Asmadi's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-05-31
Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

EDIT: Ogun is god of iron, blacksmiths, iron tools and weapons, and all those who use iron tools -- including warriors, butchers, and auto mechanics. He's also the god of cars and motorcycles.

And I object to characterizing the Loa as evil simply because of the zombies. It's not like zombification was a regular lay practice. A small number of people did it, for the purpose of gaining slaves. Is burying somebody alive any crueler or more evil than the Atlantic slave trade and the terrible Middle Passage? Many slave traders justified their cruelty by claiming they were "civilizing" and converting the Africans. Does the evil behavior of some of his worshipers make Yahweh evil? The Athenians had slavery and treated women like chattel. Does that mean Zeus and Athena are evil? Last time I checked, they're CG and LG, respectively.

I don't even know if turning people into zombies was connected in any way to the Loa. Why assume it was? Voudoun has tons of bad press and dramatization in Western media but the truth is that it is simply a religion like any other.

And there's also no reason whatsoever to assume that the Orisha are the "oldest pantheon in existence." Is it simply because Africans are "primitive" that you say this? Tons of people like to claim that the Bushmen must be the "original Africans" and that since they are technologically "primitive" they must be evolutionarily primitive as well. Turns out, recent discoveries have shown that morphologically, the first members of our species didn't look remotely like Bushmen.

All humans have the same pedigree going back to the same common origin. No matter how "primitive" or "advanced" a culture or religion supposedly is, it goes back the exact same number of millennia to the exact same origin as all other human cultures. There's absolutely no reason to assume, based on being "primitive" that one religion is older than another!

Unless we've got some concrete archaeological evidence that clear iconographic or written references to the Orisha are the oldest known references to deities still worshiped in the 21st century, we've got no basis to think they're any older than any other pantheon.

Kobold Avenger's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2005-11-18
Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

'Vaevictis Asmadi' wrote:
I don't even know if turning people into zombies was connected in any way to the Loa. Why assume it was? Voudoun has tons of bad press and dramatization in Western media but the truth is that it is simply a religion like any other.
I'd say that turning people into zombies is generally neutral. After all the Dustmen do the same things, and zombies are mindless undead, the neutral evil alignment was just a 3.5ism to simplify the game for possibly less sophisticated players. As zombies and skeletons were neutral in alignment until the most recent edition.

I know that historically zombies were simply poisoning people with some sort of drug and making them into indentured servants. It was allegedly a form of punishment.

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

From the Planewalker encyclopedia:

Central American Pantheon
African Deities

I haven't bothered to add separate articles for the various African deities yet; they're not explicitly connected to the Great Wheel in the sources, so Planescape connections are minimal.

Jem
Jem's picture
Offline
Factor
Joined: 2006-05-10
Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

Several points have been raised, all of which deserve response but which should be, I think, carefully separated.

1.) Regarding technology. After doing some research on precolonial West Africa, I have updated my understanding of prevalent technology in the region. At the times of Islamic and European contact, the area appears to have been Iron Age. I admit my misconception; I appreciate that such ideas often correlate to further stereotypes, but mine was simply a mistake of technological history, for which I acknowledge error. I said nothing about the Bushmen, nor do I consider any extant humans to be in any way evolutionarily less advanced than any other group, and would very much appreciate if no one draws such a conclusion about me.

2.) Regarding the variety of gods in Africa: of this I am aware. The original post specifically discussed the "Afro-Caribbean pantheon," by which one understands those religions that crossed the ocean, primarily by means of the slavery diaspora; these in turn came largely from West African kingdoms such as the Oyo, Yoruba and Mende, which have a coherent cosmogony whose basic elements are common to variety of cultures in the region.

3.) Regarding the age of the African pantheon(s): though cultures change, in a fantasy world gods that survive often change with them. Jupiter is little more than Zeus with a new name. In a world where a parallel of the out-of-Africa hypothesis is true, it is entirely possible that the ancestral gods of the oldest stable family/territory groups, with some interchanges and fluctuations, could include the oldest gods on the planet. I find it curious that exception is taken to the inference -- old gods are quite possibly more experienced, powerful, and entrenched than younger ones.

This need not be the case in any given world, of course. I merely brought it up as plausible. A glance through various websites on comparative religion suggests to me that Hinduism is in fact the oldest religion currently practiced, and most of the West African pantheon are mythical constructs of more recent and perhaps political provenance. (See, for instance, Shango, below.)

4.) Returning to the proximate subject, the discussion is aimed at the form those gods took after their transoceanic metamorphosis. It is pointed out that Shango is a god of blacksmiths, iron tools, and, in modern times, auto mechanics. These are, of course, later additions to an earlier portfolio -- at birth, Shango was a deified Yoruba king, and was an ancestor god. His area of influence was iron (especially iron weaponry), thunder and lightning: intense and dangerous power in forms natural, libidinal, and political.

(Such a portfolio means Shango is often referred to today as the patron loa or orisha of Western science and technology in general. This makes him an excellent god for an Urban Planescape setting!)

5.) The question arises whether to characterize the loa as evil. It is quite true that raising zombies (currently an evil act, if we go by 3.5 cosmologies) is not a core practice of voodoun. I did qualify it as a literary staple of voodoo, and we may disregard it if you wish, but for a fantasy game it seems wise to bring it up.

We may be more technical regarding the alignment of the loa. Loa are worshiped in two aspects, a generally benevolent Rada aspect, whose worship was more closely related to African forms, and a Petro aspect, apparently of Caribbean provenance, for more aggressive purposes. This could be explained as the African and post-transition pantheons being entirely separate entities, the latter being opportunistic, or with the "multiple aspects" theory, wherein dabbling with the undead is strictly limited to evil worshipers of neutral members of the pantheon or to worshipers of the spirits that traditionally play the role of the antagonists in the religion, such as Kadiempembe, Mbua and the nkisi.

(To forestall objections, I am aware these last few examples are disputed. There is little consensus among practitioners of a religion so torn from its roots. If we are to propose a standardized pantheon of loa, it would certainly be wise to find some authoritative sources on which we could generally agree. Certainly the Dragon articles cited under Rip's article should probably be a good starting point.)

Vaevictis Asmadi's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-05-31
Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

'Jem' wrote:
I said nothing about the Bushmen, nor do I consider any extant humans to be in any way evolutionarily less advanced than any other group, and would very much appreciate if no one draws such a conclusion about me.
I didn't say that. Don't put words in my mouth. Please look again what I said. It was an ANALOGY to your statement that the Orisha must be "the oldest pantheon on earth."

Alder_Fiter_Galaz's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2007-03-07
Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

There is Maztica (Forgotten) and Hepomaland (Greyhawk) some locations similar to Mezoamerica, along with similar gods.
I see also a african themed setting in OGL somewhere.

As loa the prehispanic peruvian gods or wakas have two aspects one somewhat akin to evil and the other to good.

Then about technological issues, is important to note that even african, caribean or other cultures may seem barbaric, they have knowledges far more advanced than his counterparts in europe.
for example in prehispanic peruvian cultures, the knowledge about hidraulics are unparalled even compared to actual high-tech knowledge.
Imagine a colossal temple laberintic and half subterranean able to sound in diferent tunes only with hydraulic power (Chavin de Huantar) or a subterranean and kilometric web of water canals who still works in the middle of a desertic zone (Nazca Lines) -do you think they are conections to ETs?, wrong answer!-

If you want to know:
Me and some friends are making the panteon of prehispanic peruvian cultures along with all the setting. (incas, Macchu Picchu -a modern world wonder in the international poll about it-, Nazca lines, lord of Sipan)
If you what to see it and can read spanish maybe can read the link in my signature below.
Maybe you can ever send me a MP about your opinions about the setting.

Kobold Avenger's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2005-11-18
Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

Somewhere along the line I had an idea about an advanced Aztec/Mayan culture. Complete with airships called Sun Chariots, and many high-magic technologies that would put many other places to shame.

Alder_Fiter_Galaz's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2007-03-07
Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

In my personal opinion I do not like many of the spaceship-like versions of cultures such as mezoamerican, caribbean, african or sudamerican, because that suggest that the cultures can not get the wonders asociated with it without an alien influence.

The cultures have many wonders without resorting to an easy link with ETs. Different is if you consider that wonders and also make the cultures technically advanced. Resist the temptation to make such easy link.

Then I think i must add the prehispanic peruvian panteons to the files of planescape soon.

Kobold Avenger's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2005-11-18
Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

'Alder_Fiter_Galaz' wrote:
In my personal opinion I do not like many of the spaceship-like versions of cultures such as mezoamerican, caribbean, african or sudamerican, because that suggest that the cultures can not get the wonders asociated with it without an alien influence.

The cultures have many wonders without resorting to an easy link with ETs. Different is if you consider that wonders and also make the cultures technically advanced. Resist the temptation to make such easy link.


I never said there was any outside influence involved, I always saw them as developing such things on their own.

Vaevictis Asmadi's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-05-31
Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

'Vaevictis Asmadi' wrote:
Shango is also god of iron, blacksmiths, iron tools and weapons, and all those who use iron tools -- including warriors and auto mechanics. He's also the god of cars and, I think, motorcycles.

Oops, sorry for this confusion, I have Shango mixed up with Ogun. Ogun is god of blacksmiths and automobiles, Shango is god of lightning.

Alder_Fiter_Galaz's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2007-03-07
Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

Sorry i think you are talking about inadecuate outside influence, Kobold Avenger.
My fault. :oops:

Jem
Jem's picture
Offline
Factor
Joined: 2006-05-10
Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

'Vaevictis Asmadi' wrote:
'Vaevictis Asmadi' wrote:
Shango is also god of iron, blacksmiths, iron tools and weapons, and all those who use iron tools -- including warriors and auto mechanics. He's also the god of cars and, I think, motorcycles.

Oops, sorry for this confusion, I have Shango mixed up with Ogun. Ogun is god of blacksmiths and automobiles, Shango is god of lightning.

Understandable, as there is some portfolio overlap. Shango deals with lightning, fire, and iron, especially iron weaponry. In a modern setting, he is strongly related to gunpowder and other explosives. (In this aspect he is often identified with the Christian Saint Barbara.) In Carella's Shadow War setting his manifestations can increase the power of such devices. Oggun is a war deity and oversees metals generally, including iron and metalcrafting; his manifestations can take control of engine-driven vehicles. Both are said to be associated with technology in a broad sense.

Alder_Fiter_Galaz's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2007-03-07
Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

Most old gods on the caribbean, centro and southamericam now are identificated with catholic saints, or even aspects of Saint Mary such as the Virgin of Copacabana in Bolivia with the apu or mountain deity of this place.

Maybe this syncretism - the name of this phenomena - is a way to reconstruct old cultures religions to be useful for the planescape setting.

When you reconstruct a religion in this way consider the impact of the spanish culture and religion in the adaptation of the older religion.

In fact, I use similar aproach to reconstruct old andean peruvian gods such as Inti, god of the Sun, Catequil, Wiracocha, Wakon and a ton of others.

Jem
Jem's picture
Offline
Factor
Joined: 2006-05-10
Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

And now that I have a bit of time on my hands, let's actually take a look at some of the gods for which I have RP material to hand. I'm going to be using the Afro-Caribbean deities which are now worshiped as loa, selecting from the list of major powers worshiped in C. J. Carella's Voodoo: The Shadow War setting. There's little information on these deities in the encyclopedia, but let's see what information we have in the Gods List:

Legba or Eleggua: unlisted. Carella gives him as the deity of crossroads, in this aspect being the loa of magic as the necessary intermediary between man and spirit. He is also protector of the home, a deity of justice, and one of the leaders of the pantheon. I would suggest these all mark him as a greater deity, with a LG aspect that leads the pantheon, protects homes and dispenses justice, and a lesser N aspect covering crossroads and magic.

Damballa and Ayida-Weido: unlisted. These two are either god and wife or a male and female aspect of the same god. In some cosmogonies, they are the parents of the other gods. They are symbolized by (and presumably oversee) snakes, an old phallic symbol. Their portfolio is licit love, particularly marriage, and they are also said to be bringers of knowledge, luck, and wealth. With such areas of interest, I suggest that the pair be assigned CG status. Not sure about their status; there are a lot of greater gods running around this list already. They might be of interest to lizardfolk, dragonkind, or other reptilians.

Erzulie: unlisted. Beauty, lust, love, femininity, vengeance, and discord are all associated with her. CN at best, it seems entirely likely she is CE. I would think it best to align her CN, with a strong contingent of CE worshipers, since I would consider it highly unlikely that she could legitimately possess NE worshipers -- most of them just aren't vibrant enough for her. Intermediate.

Obatala: listed (Dragon #191). Official stats: greater deity, LG, portfolio is creation and the earth. I'm not sure about giving him greater status; intermediate seems better. Carella lists him as a deity of mind, purity, peace and harmony. Arcadia sounds like his kind of place. I think I might add peace, the mind and psionics to his portfolio for a Planescape setting.

Ochosi: unlisted. This god may be dead from extermination of worshipers, or merely reduced to lesser status. Nature, hunting, healing, and herbalists are under his aegis, so I think that if he is still alive, making him a lesser N deity is best.

Ogun: listed (Dragons #27 and #191). Officially, LN, overseeing hunters, iron, metalsmiths, and warriors. Other than giving him an Intermediate divine rank, I see no need to make any changes. Dwarves probably love this guy (among those that follow any deities other than dwarven traditional, of course -- and even those that do still probably like him on general principles).

Orunla or Orunmilla: listed (Dragon #191). Officially, Greater, NG, portfolio art, diplomacy, divination, and knowledge. I see no need to make any changes.

Shango: listed(Dragons #27 and #191). Officially, greater, CE. Power, storms, and the Yoruba form his portfolio. CE? Pshaw, that's no fun. Historically, the deity of uncontrolled energy seems better off CN, and there's no way this fellow's a greater deity. Intermediate, and we should toss in Earth as part of his portfolio here to cover iron and ironworking; chaotic deities associated with elemental Earth in d20 aren't very common.

Samedi, a.k.a. Baron Samedi: listed (Dragon #288). CN, with portfolio "ancestral knowledge, cemeteries, death, and eroticism." I see no need to make any changes; intermediate rank.

(Lots of intermediate deities here, but then there are quite a few lesser deities not being mentioned in this list.)

Evil spirits associated to the pantheon (all of these are unlisted):

Zarabanda: war, destruction, hatred/anger. Greater, CE.

Ikku: death (formerly of the Guede, i.e., of Samedi and his brothers). Possibly our culprit for the rumormongering about zombies, so let's add the undead to his portfolio. Intermediate, NE.

Mbua: slavers and assassins, especially serial killers. Smells LN to me.

mos_anted's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2009-11-16
Re: Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

Sorry for the thrad necro, but I was working on placing the aztec/olman pantheon within the outer planes. Now, I know that form canon the aztec gods live on the Prime Material, but I think that as they are being worshipped in several worlds (Earth (aztecs), Oerth (olmans) and quite possibly Toril (considering the maztican deities simply renamed versions/aspects of them)) it's more logical to have them go "cosmopolitan" and relocate in the material plane. Soo crossng info between the aztec mythos articles from dragon, the living greyhawk gods list, the Maztica CS, and the planewalker wiki, I was working on placing the mesoamerican divine realms within the outer planes. This is what I've come up with:

Quetzalcoatl-Mount Celestia/Jovar/Tlazcautli
Camazotz-Carceri/Cathrys/Zompantli
Chalchiuhtlicue-Arcadia/Abellio/Tlalocan
Chitza-Atlan-?
Cihuacoatl-Prime Material or Elemental Earth?
Huhueteotl-?
Huitzilopochtli-Acheron/Avalas/Tlatocalli
Hurakon-Limbo/Mayahuel
Mictlantecuhtli-Gray Waste/Niflheim/Mictlan
TEzcatlipoca-Pandemonium/Pandesmos/Xipetlan
Tlaloc-Gehenna/Chamada/Exbal Ken
Tlazoteotl-?
Tonatiuh-?
Xipetotec-?
Xochipilli-Arborea/Arvandor/Teotecan

Notice I've been using the realms names from the Maztica boxed set. What do you thinik? Where would you place the remaining power's realms?

A.Bardo's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2009-11-21
Re: Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

Hi folks,

I am intimately acquainted with the afro-carribean religions. Here are some things that might be helpful.

1. There are a number of important differences between the Yoruban Orishas (primarily accessed through Santeria these days) and the Loa of Voudoo.

a. As noted above, there are several New World Loa not present in the African pantheon. Baron Samedi and Manman Brigitte are two good examples. Most of the Petro are new additions, as well. Voodoo is not a closed system. As Loa emerge, they are incorporated.

2. The Structure of Voodoo

a. 3 Types of Spirits

There are 3 large families of spirits. The Rada, the Ghede and the Petro. The Rada include most of the Loa who have African counterparts. They are similar in quality to the Olympians.
The Ghede are the dead. The dead are of supreme importance in all of these traditions. In rituals, the first offering is almost always to the dead. There is a saying, "the dead eat first."
The Petro are spirits we can best understand from a Western perspective as "demonic", from a Vajrayana perspective "fierce", from a Hindu perspective as "Rakshasic"

b. Many of the Loa are not singular

Many of the names of the Loa listed above are not singular entities. They refer to families of Loa. For example, there is Erzulie Dantor, Erzulie Freda, Erzulie Bon Rouge, etc. These can be treated as different aspects of the single diety in the game, but they are often dealt with quite separately in practice.

c. Alignment

Voodoo is rather heterodox. Many practitioners of Voodoo will not work with the Petro Loa at all, as they are considered evil - or at the least- troublesome. Those that work with the Petro are often referred to as Bokors, who are said to "approach divinity with both hands." These people work primarily with Carrefour, another New World loa. These are the folks that people are scared of.

3. Note On Santeria, Voodoo and other Yoruban diaspora religions-

a. These are all religions of possession. The central "sacrament" of these faiths is the ritual possession of people by Loa/Orishas. People ridden by the Loa/Orishas are referred to as "horses."

b. Each person is though to be connected to a particular Loa/Orisha. Though they honor others, the practitioner cultivates an intense bond with the Loa/Orisha that chooses them. The difference between a lay member of the church and a priest in Santeria is the ritual by which a person is inextricably bound to their Orisha. This is referred to as the asiento, or "making the saint."

c. The relationship to a particular Loa/Orisha seems really important for designing a prestige class to go with a character working this pantheon.

-A.

Kobold Avenger's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2005-11-18
Re: Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

I figured that some of the Loa would be genuine deities, while some of the other Loa would be "Primal Spirits". With them I feel that the distinction between the two is quite blurred.

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Re: Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

The reason they're not in the encyclopedia is that they're not in On Hallowed Ground, so I never really bothered.

Officially (according to 1st edition Deities & Demigods and 2nd edition Legends & Lore), the Aztec pantheon dwells among the stars and planets of a parallel Earth. Quetzalcoatl lives on Venus, for example. I'm sure this odd, tangential relationship to the Planescape cosmology is why the Aztecs and native North American deities don't appear in On Hallowed Ground.

However, some of the Aztec realms, such as Mictlan and Tlalocan, have been given specific locations in the Great Wheel in the Maztica boxed set. Mictlan is in the Gray Waste and Tlalocan is in Arcadia.

A number of African deities got writeups in Dragon Magazine, but they were never given specific home planes in the Great Wheel cosmology.

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Re: Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

Update: I didn't realize how old this thread was. The links I made above to the encyclopedia entries are dead, so here are some updated ones:

/encyclopedia/african-deities

/encyclopedia/central-american-pantheon

Samloyal23's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-05-25
Re: Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

"Legba or Eleggua: unlisted. Carella gives him as the deity of crossroads, in this aspect being the loa of magic as the necessary intermediary between man and spirit. He is also protector of the home, a deity of justice, and one of the leaders of the pantheon. I would suggest these all mark him as a greater deity, with a LG aspect that leads the pantheon, protects homes and dispenses justice, and a lesser N aspect covering crossroads and magic."

Huh? Say what? Legba was a trickster god, like the American Coyote or the Norse Loki. How is he even remotely lawful?

__________________

I'm Samuel M. Wright, and you're not.

Jem
Jem's picture
Offline
Factor
Joined: 2006-05-10
Re: Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

Samloyal23 wrote:
Huh? Say what? Legba was a trickster god, like the American Coyote or the Norse Loki. How is he even remotely lawful?

There are many different versions of Legba in the world, with substantially different personalities. Not all of them are considered a leader of the pantheon, for example.

The version I used was largely based off of Carella's, which was based on the version invoked in African-American communities' more common forms of Vodoun. A spirit who oversees justice and plays a leadership role in a pantheon seemed likely to be a lawful sort of spirit. Certainly one that plays up the trickster and travel aspects (although Legba is very specifically concerned with crossroads, decisionmaking and gatekeeping, rather than travel along roads) would be more chaotic in D&D.

Samloyal23's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-05-25
Re: Aztec/Mesoamerican and Afro-Caribbean Pantheons?

I know Legba mainly as a defender of mortals who intercepted and changed the edicts of fate, bending the orders of higher gods for our benefit...

__________________

I'm Samuel M. Wright, and you're not.

Planescape, Dungeons & Dragons, their logos, Wizards of the Coast, and the Wizards of the Coast logo are ©2008, Wizards of the Coast, a subsidiary of Hasbro Inc. and used with permission.