Atheists on the Planes

Quite so. Strong belief in a particular outcome would likely influence their fate. But in my view it would take great faith to prevent the common belief in the planes from sending them to the home of their alignment. I once suggested Her Serenity might take their souls to populate backup gate-towns in case one slides away, but I don't think that quite fits the current system.

By the way, we could easily view the Athar as monotheists in a pagan world.

The first part sounds like my description of the people who would welcome rebirth as a manes in the Abyss. The second certainly makes more sense than the Dark Lord claim.The bit about Asmodeus doesn't seem to fit the rules at all (besides sounding offensive). I don't know if the lawful bastard would even do that. It sounds like a distorted account of the simple fact that atheists would more often sign away souls they don't believe in. In order for the 2e version to make sense, you would have to place the LE ruler in opposition to all Powers, so that Moradin and Demogorgon (or Cyric, or the Power of Ragnarok) would be on the same side, united against him. Which makes no sense unless you follow my suggestion for the Athar and assume that monotheism is inherently (lawful) evil, something I'm not willing to do.

People who want to preserve the claim as best they can might take it to mean that Law's evil serpent benefits when people adhere to any abstract principle of law that counts as evil. He gets the souls and 'worship' of people like Stalin or the Imaskari in stories because they have no LE Powers to compete with him. This takes the focus off atheism and puts it back on Asmodeus' portfolio where it belongs.

Jem ,I agree with most of that, but I really don't see anything special or different happening to atheists than to anyone else (excluding clerics and the similarly devoted); they just go to the plane that matches their alignment.

I believe that the complete and utter rejection of law, chaos, good, and evil, would require contact with the Far Realm. But ultimately despite the amorality of the Far Realm and any individual's beliefs, all actions within the multiverse (and I consider the Far Realm to be outside of the multiverse) do have moral ramifications. I might utterly reject alignment and ordinary existence; but if I killed a man in cold blood to demonstrate the meaninglessness and transience of this existence, that action is still evil within the multiverse that I exist. So they too would go to an Outer Plane corresponding to their alignment.

All souls naturally travel to the Outer Planes upon death. The only ones that don't end up there are those who get lost in the Astral Plane (for whatever reason), who due to some great emotional trauma or unfinished business refuse to leave the material plane and wind up as ghosts in the ethereal plane, and the most pious priests of gods who dwell elsewhere (such as the Inner Planes) who are snatched up by their deity on the way to the Outer Planes and brought to the realm of their god.

Iavas, people who do not strive for anything and just live day to day should still end up in the Outer Plane corresponding to their alignment. People who do nothing (like the severely mentally handicapped) likely end up with their souls drifting in the Astral Plane.

I would advise you to check out http://www.dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/ for some interesting ideas about the origin of the multiverse (their downloadable e-book "The Gates of Hell" matches just about anything written for the Planewalker setting).

The idea of the souls of Athar joining in endless migration across the Astral is pretty damn cool.

However, I'd say most nonbelievers simply go to their plane of alignment (or whichever fits their personality best).

As for Asmodeus, of course he doesn't get nonbelievers automatically. He craves nonbelievers because the substance of doubt wears away at his bonds - with enough of them, he'll be able to rewrite the laws encoded into his plane long before he came to rule it. With enough doubt, he can reforge the Outer Planes in his image. So he collects the souls of doubters (which isn't exactly the same as atheists, since some, though certainly not most, atheists treat their beliefs as a matter of faith, rather than as a matter of doubt). He decrees that the souls of the doubtful be brought to Nessus and dropped in the deepest of pits, whose sides are continually worn away by the dubious sinners, their larval forms eating away at the substance of the planes of belief. Desiring more, he trades with shadow fiends and night hags - the larva he's collecting from the night hags is known in planar circles, which is why the larva entry in the PSMC1 speaks of the Bringing, an apocalyptic event that, burning the power of countless thousands of larvae at once, rumored to be capable of changing the direction of the Blood War once and for all.

As I said on the other plane, and as I'm sure most here already agree, atheists do have beliefs. Besides believing that the gods don't exist, aren't divine, or (in the case of many Buddhists) are divine but are irrelevant to salvation, the vast majority of people, atheist theist and agnostic alike, have morals and ethics and believe that they are right. As far as I am concerned, alignment is a direct measure (in very simplified game terms) of a person's ethical and moral beliefs and behavior. So there is no reason I can see that anybody would not end up, at least, on the plane of their alignment unless the person was not only totally sociopathic and apathetic, but also so extremely nihilistic that they somehow rejected even complete neutrality. I'm not sure this is even possible for human psychology apart from people who are genuine vegetables. I could imagine those folks floating through the astral, peacefully, or something. But everyone else should end up with an afterlife unless the fiends actually did get a hold of their soul through contracts, or them becoming a larva, or whatever, and sold them to Asmodeus.

I think the statement in whatever book that atheists are automatically eaten by Asmodeus as "the true damned of the multiverse" is utterly horrible, stupid turd, and regardless of how canonical it is I think it should be ignored.

This is how I see it: Clerics and faithful worshippers of specific gods go to the god's realm. People who are only casual worshippers, or who worship an entire pantheon, or believe in an entire pantheon but don't worship any god more than the others, go to the pantheon's group realm or the afterlife soul-gathering place of that Pantheon: Kelemvor, Hades, Yamapura, etc. Then according to the pantheon's dictates, some of these stay in that initial place, some are sent elsewhere, such as a person in Hades getting sent to Elysium or Arborea or Carceri, and some are reincarnated or, if the pantheon actually calls for it, obliterated.

People who don't believe strongly in a particular pantheon, who are Athar or atheists or agnostics or Buddhists, who aren't really sure what to believe in, or who worship abstract concepts and ideas, go to the realm of their alignment. Even most of the super-nihilistic, apathetic people will usually end up in an outer plane, even if it is the Grey Waste. Only those who truly lack morals or ethics of any kind could end up obliterated automatically, but even then I'd argue that somebody utterly amoral is just NE. Hades is the plane of apathy, as well.

But for those who disagree with landing on the plane of alignment, what do you think happens in Planescape to "clueless" who worship a god that doesn't actually exist? Or worship a god that, unknown to them, is dead? What if they worship something that does exist but isn't actually a god, or which has no plane and no realm and accepts no petitioners? I mean, say that there's a small cult of people on the prime somewhere who believe their planet is an Earth Goddess and worship her. Except in reality, their planet is just a hunk of completely inanimate rock. What happens?

Just about everyone has beliefs. But there's a difference between believing in something and not believing in something. The former, as far as the Outer Planes are concerned, is creative - you're reinforcing something with your belief. The second is destructive - you're only taking away from the substance of the Outer Planes.

I think there's a real, useful distinction between a disagreement about whether an object is a hammer or a screwdriver and a disagreement about whether the object is there at all. If something doesn't exist, or doesn't possess a quality (such as divinity or worthiness), there's really nothing to talk about. There's nothing to believe. We aren't required to believe things about objects, qualities, or beings who don't exist.

Part of the problem here is linguistic. It's certainly grammatically correct to say "I believe this doesn't exist," but I think the English language, and the flexible meaning of the word "belief," fails to capture a crucial distinction between different orders of belief. Saying that not believing in something is a kind of belief is like saying that not running is a kind of running, or not punching someone in the face is a kind of punching them in the face. Because belief is defined only by thought, and not something tangible like hitting people, it's easy to claim it exists even its absence, where with hitting people there'd be much less dispute.

I think not believing in something can lead to beliefs, which is where things get more confusing. If I chose to disbelieve in the chair that I'm sitting on, I'm probably forcing myself to accept a host of new beliefs - that my legs are much longer than they really are, or I've somehow developed the ability to levitate, or someone is carrying me, that I'm hallucinating or dreaming, or that the object I'm sitting on is something other than a chair. If you don't believe the powers are divine, what do you believe about the powers? Maybe you're just not a very thoughtful person, so you don't believe much of anything about them. But many Athar will have complex theories about what exactly the powers are and how they came to be so powerful. They may also have theories about something that is divine, a Great Unknown that lies beyond what is comprehensible by mortal intellects.

It's also possible to disbelieve in something in such a way that you're doing more than simply not believing in that thing - maybe you're believing in its absence in the same way that others believe in its presence. This is the difference between a negative number and a zero. It's difficult to judge this difference in the case of things as amorphous as beliefs, which makes the whole discussion more complicated than I wish it was.

That depends. You can have an alignment without being defined by it. Maybe you're lawful good, but your doubt is more important to you than your morals or ethics. Maybe your doubt is so powerful that it eats away at the substance of the planes, causing you to drift into the Astral, the plane where beliefs go when they die. The Astral is where gods go when the lack of belief in them becomes more powerful than the belief in them, and maybe it's the same with souls.

Maybe if you're doubtful enough, your doubt can even eat away at your own soul, leaving you with nothing to survive your body at all.

I think that's for the pantheon to decide. For the Greeks, those not especially beloved by the gods go to the realm of Hades. For the Faerunians, anyone who has a divine patron goes to the realm of that divine patron, and those with no particular patron (or those who worship falsely or faithlessly) go to the realm of Kelemvor. The Norse have a more complex system where it depends on whether you die in battle, of drowning, or of other causes. For those who don't have faith in a particular pantheonic system, they go to the realm of their god or, if they have no particular god, their plane of alignment.

Planescape, at least, didn't distinguish between faithful worshipers and casual worshipers. They all go to the realm of their god, if they have one. However, that's not to say that it's impossible for petitioners to escape from a god's realm if they really want out. If their beliefs in the god are truly inconsequential and nominal, there's nothing in particular keeping them there, or even choosing not to go there in the first place (at least in theory).

If they believe in that god, the god will start to come into existence, or start to come back to life. One person's belief isn't enough to create or resurrect a god, but it'll still make an difference - there'll be a slight presence, a subtle stirring of the corpse, a rash of strange dreams. This is the core from which a god can form. This is why even in the most thoroughly murdered gods, some amount of power can still hum there.

At this level, there probably isn't enough power to draw souls to the proto-god (so yeah, they'll end up on their plane of alignment most likely). But as more and more people believe in something, the power grows, and souls will end up going there, even before they've made an actual god. In the example of people worshiping the dead earth, they may end up as ghosts or incorporeal spirits haunting the Material Plane until they're ready to give up on their beliefs. In the case of a dead god, faithful worshipers might even end up merging with the god's corpse, slowly giving it enough power to bring itself back to life. Or their spirits may merely haunt the Astral island.

I don't think it contradicts any part of what I said. I agree that atheists can believe in their alignments, and I think they almost always end up on their plane of alignment when they die. I was speaking in hypotheticals - in theory, someone might have such a surfeit of doubt (this need not be about everything - being doubtful enough of only one thing might be sufficient) that they might not have a place in the Outer Planes at all, despite having an alignment and even believing in it.

Since in Planescape the gods' existence is pretty self-evident, I don't think any Athar claim they don't exist. They only claim that they aren't divine and aren't worthy to worship. It is only on a prime world like Athas, where no pantheon comes to interact with mortals, that you would have people who think they don't exist.

But like I said, belief in an absence of something is still a belief. It is still a thought. Only total vegetables supposedly lack thought entirely.
And if by belief you mean faith, then again, I point to every person who thinks their morals/alignment are "right." That is not religious faith, but it is the same sort of emotions and thoughts.

Right. The question is not whether or not the powers exist, but whether or not their divinity exists.

One side of the debate says the powers possess an intangible concept called "divinity" or "worthiness."

The Athar say the powers do not have these qualities.

The argument, then, is like an argument between a group of people who believe a hammer (or possibly a screwdriver) exists on a table and a group that says there is nothing there at all. Belief in something versus the lack of belief in that thing, rather than belief in something versus the belief in something else.

The lack of belief in something is not the same as belief in the thing's absence. One is passive, the other is active. There's a big difference between someone who disbelieves because of doubt and a person who disbelieves because of certainty.

I think it's important to take note of that difference when you're imagining universes made of belief. If the Outer Planes are made of belief, how would real doubt affect them? Not an alternate belief - the Outer Planes are all about that - but doubt.

Nobody's saying the Athar don't think, but the way in which they think can be crucial.

The distinction I'm trying to make is one of priorities. How important are your morals to you? If someone has a different set of morals, do you refuse to associate with them? If that's true, you should probably go to your plane of alignment. If other qualities are more important to you - a shared faith in a deity, perhaps, or maybe interests and philosophies that have nothing to do with ethics - then a plane's alignment shouldn't be that great of a concern for your soul.

I thought it was generally agreed that atheists go to their plane of alignment and only the truly unthinking get punished in some way. And I really disagree with agnosticism being only doubt and uncommitment. I consider myself agnostic, and by that I mean that while I believe in many things, and ponder a great many more, I do not walk about saying that I know the will of the divine like most religions do. It is not doubt or uncommitment to admit that you do not have all the answers, as long as you keep looking for them.

Oh no, I didn't mean that at all. I mean that somebody who was doubtful about gods but didn't commit to fully disbelieving in them, sounds more like an agnostic position than a fully atheistic one to me.

I know that it's also common to commit to the belief that true knowledge about the divine is impossible. Sort of like in the alignment system, where some Neutrals lack commitment to any alignment and some are committed specifically to the Balance.

Besides, agnostics can believe strongly in an alignment, a moral code, an abstract principle, or nationality, just like other folkage.

A lot of them are. Some, like Factol Terrence, believe there is some true divinity beyond the false powers, but it's not required for an Athar to believe this. You can be an Athar and believe that true divinity doesn't exist.

The Great Unknown isn't really a god, not exactly. It's just something that is worthy of being worshiped, something that's not petty or jealous or unjust or mortal or comprehensible. It's something that's eternal and perfect and for some reason impossible for mortals to perceive thus far except through the spells it grants. It might be more of a force, or an ideal, or perfection itself. It's something that mortals can never personify or understand.

The Athar believe the powers aren't truly divine because, as a class of beings, they are known to be unjust, petty, lustful, vengeful, capable of dying. Most Athar understand that an individual god may be an exception to these rules. Terrence has nothing but respect and admiration for his former patron, the goddess Mishakal, but because she's the same basic kind of entity as Hiddukel or Chemosh, he no longer sees her as a divinity. She's simply a good person who does the best she can with her great power; he's decided that this isn't enough to justify worshiping her.

Some Athar aren't that way. Some are angry at all the powers, believing them to be frauds and liars. Some don't believe there is any true divinity in the multiverse; why should they? What evidence has it given of itself? If there's a true god somewhere, why hasn't it filled the multiverse with justice and love? If a god exists, why is there suffering? They believe that Athars like Terrence live on false hope, and that the spells they receive are only the products of their own misguided dreams, if they're not actually given to them by fiends or false powers who find their delusions useful.

If all Athars believed in a god, they would be monotheists. And they're not. Many are atheists or agnostics. Terrence and other believers in the Great Unknown are probably theists of a sort, though not monotheists; they don't necessarily believe the Great Unknown is a singular being, or even an entity in the sense the term is normally meant. It is simply that which merits worship. It's the faith that somewhere out there, something is worthy of their devotion, even if the flawed beings in the imperfect planes they know are not.

Just my own opinion, but what about the atheist who are so ardent in their beliefs that they scoff at and deride the truely religious? Hammer at their beliefs, smash them with fossils, and truely hate the religious with an almost-religious furor. Most folks who have had to sit through some psuedo-intellectual after he read Atlas Shrugged know the type I mean. Not like Hawking or Einstein, but like the statement Marx made about those that need religion feels about the religious.

Well, again, in my own opinion, in the realm of the gods, this is something that is an absolute no-no. These folks are pulling at the powers' main source of power and well-being, and I can see some sort of cabal in the ancient days where the powers all agreed to send these folks to Asmodeus. Asmodeus certainly believes in the powers, and torment and anihilation at his hands could be the judgement that some powers have decided as right and just for turning against them.

Again, this is just my attempt to get it in line with printed material. Maybe the gods don't WANT those atheists messing up their realms and spouting screed (according to the gods) that can turn the religious among us "off" to their religion...so they respond the only way they see fit: Give 'em time on the prime/planes to learn the "truth," and if they can't get that into their heads, the afterlife is all torture and pain as a "reward" for their views. The gods don't like you messing with their food, after all!

First off, I'll reiterate that this is just my attempt to align with printed material. Asmodeus wouldn't necessarily increase in power or anything with all those atheist souls running around in the Ninth Level, they wouldn't worship him, they would just be his food and playthings as a precursor to true death of those souls. Remember, this is the punishment laid down in ancient days for those who forsake the gods in all ways, not necessarily how I would run things.

Again, to the gods, who create and sustain life, there isn't a difference between the two. Forsaking them is forsaking their system of reward, and the only difference between a good atheist and a bad atheist is that one was nicer to be around during his time on the Prime. Once he died, again, because he forsook the gods in all things and denied them, he reaps the punishment meted out by even the most benevolent of Powers...he goes to Asmodeus on his way to true death (or who knows, maybe reincarnation: The printed material wasn't exactly clear on what the big A actually does with the souls in the first place).

Oh, yeah...that's one thing we have in common for sure. I don't have to like it, but then again, if I was born in a Norse world what right do I have to denounce Odin and his crew? All the good living in the world may not appease His Eyelessness if I simply gave up on believing in him in the first place. Nobody (except the Athar) says the gods aren't perfect, and the price of denial of that perfection may be eternal damnation. The Athar could probably use these arguments to show how unperfect the powers actually are...spiteful and corrupt even in their most goodly incarnations. Makes for great recruiting, anyways .

Gotcha. I must have missed that in the longer replies up top. Yeah, I agree that it doesn't seem fair at all, but whoever (says the Athar) accused the powers of playing fair?

Actually, it implies Asmodeus supports that faction but I don't think it implies that the Faction actually goes there.

Honestly, I do find it interesting to imagine what Genuine Atheists would do if exposed to the Planescape continuum. At least presumably monotheists and so on go to their gods realm and are probably none the wiser.

A genuine atheist on Earth, transplanted to Planescape?

In the Planescape setting, it's not hard to get pretty tangible proof of the existence of various deities (and various afterlives). Also proof of the supernatural in general. Some of them might actually find a deity that works well for them and go with that.

Others would say: Deities clearly exist here, but I'm not sure I want to actually worship any of these guys. I'm not sure whether they would necessarily join the Athar, since Athar are portrayed as outright hostile to deities.

A couple might even say: "The gods here are born and die; why, a mortal can even become a god. If I can convert enough people to my cause, I could become a deity." The ones who would do this are probably either very power-hungry or have a unique personal belief system that doesn't fit in with the existing bunch of deities. Anyway, they might join the Godsmen.

Have there ever been any Athar who has attempted to elevate himself to the status of an Anti-Deity? Harvest all the Athar faction's derision towards the Gods as belief and faith and rise up as a God of I-Hate-Gods?

It would seem ridiculously hypocritical but the idea might have merit. An Atheist's God could give the Athar some weird sort of pseudo-leverage, especially if he/she took it as a 'You-Need-Diamonds-to-Cut-Diamonds' sort of premise (and viewed himself/herself as ultimately anathema, and to be destroyed/de-Godded once all the other Gods have been pulled down off their pedastols).