Assorted questions

8 posts / 0 new
Last post
Palomides's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2010-06-26
Assorted questions

Ok, this should be the last of my annoying questions. None of these seemed important enough to give their own

In the Grey Wastes in the distant past, an earthquake struck and created the Maw, a massive crevace down the center of the plane. It swallowed a yugoloth city/fortress. It is now a yawning, miles wide gorge called the Ghoresh Chasm.
At the uttermost bottom of the chasm, yugoloth explorers discovered a massive seal, presenting symbols of evil, chaos, and law intertwined with one another. Further investigation of the seal seemed to suggest that it could only be opened by the willing cooperation of all three major fiend races, themselves spanning the ethical axis of Evil.
The three fiend races met, intending to mutually open the seal at the base of the rift, but things never progressed that far.
Since that time, it is unknown if the yugoloths have discerned anything further regarding the nature or origin of the seal itself, or the cause of the initial wastequake, and Ghoresh itself remains an enigma.
**Questions:
-Basically, the whole thing. Anyone know what’s going on with this idea? Anyone have any independently conceived ways on how to use this?

-During the Great Upheaval that reduced Sigils factions to 15, the Indeps understandably surged. Shortly after that, a plague swept through that only affected Indeps.
**Questions
-Was this caused by the Lady (does she want factions of controllable size) or was it caused by another? I think it was implied but do we know for certain?
-Potential idea: What if another person learns how to create and targets another group? (e.g. decides to wipe out the Harmonium)

-The same day he joins the Fated, Duke Rowan Darkwood suggest that Factol Emma Oakwright step down and name him the new Factol. She does.
**Questions
-Is Emma still around? What is she doing? I read about her brother, Aram, but not her.
-Did she leave because of magic charms, blackmail, did Darkwood offer her something in exchange or did Darkwood just present a great argument? Did they ever officially say?

-The yugoloths created/mutated the Maeldur Et Kavurik to grant the fiends of thier teleport ability. They later took it away the ability away so that the yugoloths could make all the forces of evil obedient to them
**Questions
-This seems like this would be a huge change to the status quo. But perhaps because it would be such a huge change, it doesn't seem like there wasn't many ramifications to affect the Planescape universe. Yes I know that it offically happened; but really has anything REALLY changed? Seems like the forces of good would be mobilizing
-Potential idea: Is there are parallel creature for the planes of good that allow celestials to cross the planes? (Perhaps that is really what the guardinals guard in Elysium’s swamp? Stories of the uber-hydra being a myth. If such a being held the True Names of every celestial, it would be disasterous if the forces of evil controlled or even killed it)

Hyena of Ice's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2009-09-25
Re: Assorted questions

^^The Hydra of Legend isn't a myth unless all beasts of legend are myths.
I would assume that such a creature does exist and is under the control of the Angels/Aasimon, who are the celestial equivalent of the Yugoloths as far as role (the guardinals are the default NG celestials, but the Angels are the "celestial overlord" race)
You could very well be on to something, though, and it makes sense that it would be on Elysium.

That brings up something I've been meaning to ask you, Rip. What are all the Beasts of Legend established in Planescape thus far?
I am only aware of that damned hydra plus the Androsphinx on Air.
I ask because I intend to place a bunch on the Inner Planes (esp. ice).

Kobold Avenger's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2005-11-18
Re: Assorted questions

Palomides wrote:
-The yugoloths created/mutated the Maeldur Et Kavurik to grant the fiends of thier teleport ability. They later took it away the ability away so that the yugoloths could make all the forces of evil obedient to them **Questions -This seems like this would be a huge change to the status quo. But perhaps because it would be such a huge change, it doesn't seem like there wasn't many ramifications to affect the Planescape universe. Yes I know that it offically happened; but really has anything REALLY changed? Seems like the forces of good would be mobilizing -Potential idea: Is there are parallel creature for the planes of good that allow celestials to cross the planes? (Perhaps that is really what the guardinals guard in Elysium’s swamp? Stories of the uber-hydra being a myth. If such a being held the True Names of every celestial, it would be disasterous if the forces of evil controlled or even killed it)
The designers themselves felt it was a problem for the Blood War if all Baatezu and Tanar'i had the ability to cast Teleport Without Error at will. Since it wouldn't be much of a conflict if all main combatants could just teleport away at the first sign of trouble rather than suffering a painful temporary death. That was something that was ignored later on.

Quote:
In the Grey Wastes in the distant past, an earthquake struck and created the Maw, a massive crevace down the center of the plane. It swallowed a yugoloth city/fortress. It is now a yawning, miles wide gorge called the Ghoresh Chasm. At the uttermost bottom of the chasm, yugoloth explorers discovered a massive seal, presenting symbols of evil, chaos, and law intertwined with one another. Further investigation of the seal seemed to suggest that it could only be opened by the willing cooperation of all three major fiend races, themselves spanning the ethical axis of Evil. The three fiend races met, intending to mutually open the seal at the base of the rift, but things never progressed that far. Since that time, it is unknown if the yugoloths have discerned anything further regarding the nature or origin of the seal itself, or the cause of the initial wastequake, and Ghoresh itself remains an enigma.
There's no official explanation to this. But I'd suspect it would have something to do with Tharizdun, or an endgame ploy from some force to actually create the Apocalypse.

Jem
Jem's picture
Offline
Factor
Joined: 2006-05-10
Re: Assorted questions

Palomides wrote:
-During the Great Upheaval that reduced Sigils factions to 15, the Indeps understandably surged. Shortly after that, a plague swept through that only affected Indeps. **Questions -Was this caused by the Lady (does she want factions of controllable size) or was it caused by another? I think it was implied but do we know for certain? -Potential idea: What if another person learns how to create and targets another group? (e.g. decides to wipe out the Harmonium)

From the DM's Dark in The Factol's Manifesto, so be warned, it's revelatory:

Spoiler: Highlight to view
Originally, the Lady was simply having the Indeps cut down to size through targeted killings. The idea of a plague gained currency, and it amused her to fit life to speculation. She created an actual disease, that she'll sometimes give an Indep as they come in through a portal.

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Re: Assorted questions

Palomides wrote:
In the Grey Wastes in the distant past, an earthquake struck and created the Maw, a massive crevace down the center of the plane. It swallowed a yugoloth city/fortress. It is now a yawning, miles wide gorge called the Ghoresh Chasm. At the uttermost bottom of the chasm, yugoloth explorers discovered a massive seal, presenting symbols of evil, chaos, and law intertwined with one another. Further investigation of the seal seemed to suggest that it could only be opened by the willing cooperation of all three major fiend races, themselves spanning the ethical axis of Evil. The three fiend races met, intending to mutually open the seal at the base of the rift, but things never progressed that far. Since that time, it is unknown if the yugoloths have discerned anything further regarding the nature or origin of the seal itself, or the cause of the initial wastequake, and Ghoresh itself remains an enigma.

Not so distant, necessarily. This appears on the timeline some time between the Rebellion of the Inferiors (the first known public appearance of the Dark Eight, and therefore after the Reckoning of Hell) and the death of Orcus. If you go by the Forgotten Realms timeline, Orcus died only a decade or so ago (right after the Time of Troubles); Dead Gods has Orcus die centuries ago, however. The Reckoning was more than 1000 years ago going by Planescape sources (since Bel ascended more than 1000 years ago, and the Reckoning was before that), but as the previous rulers of Hell are still known, probably not much more than that. That could have been much more recently too, if you go by the 3rd edition assumption that the Hag Countess and Bel haven't even had time to put together proper courts yet. I tend to guesstimate the opening of Ghoresh Chasm at around 500 years ago.

Anyway, you probably don't care about that.

I've been actually meaning to write a post on Ghoresh Chasm for quite a while now, inspired by the city of Morglon-Daar from the 4e Demonomicon sourcebook. Basically, Morglon-Daar is a city of yugoloths built at the base of the Wasting Tower of Khin-Oin in a deep chasm. It's a 4th edition thing, so it combines two very different 2nd-3rd edition sites, Khin-Oin in the Gray Waste and the Grand Abyss in the Abyss. So in placing it in the Great Wheel cosmology, we have two choices. It could be placed in the Grand Abyss, as intended by the designers, and references to yugoloths could be toned down or removed; it's an interesting town regardless of what kinds of fiends rule it. Or it could be moved to the Gray Waste, at the base of Khin-Oin, and the chasm it's built in could be changed from the Grand Abyss to Ghoresh Chasm. Ghoresh Chasm could well be right next to Khin-Oin; it's said to be at the "center of the plane," if that means anything on an infinite expanse, and Khin-Oin is surely as central to the plane as anything else. If it's moved to the Waste, there needs to be some way to get from that point in Ghoresh Chasm to elsewhere in the planes, since it's meant to be a base for planar explorers. The Styx probably flows through it, pouring down the side of the chasm and into other planes and layers. It might well be the destination of the portal in Hopeless, with a portal in it that leads back to the Outlands. It might have other portals leading to locations in Gehenna and Carceri, or the Styx could be relied upon for that. Wrechtmirk in Acheron, too. And of course it attracts people needing to deal with the 'loths, and those curious about Ghoresh Chasm and the mysteries it holds.

On to Ghoresh Chasm itself. It's an enigma, of course, meant for the DM to fill in as needed. It's clearly something apocalyptic in scope, so it's a good place to plug in any plane-shaking Big Bad, buried beneath the Gray Waste for an eternity, only now awakening. It could be Tharizdun, as Kobold suggested (and Tharizdun is part of the background of the official Morglon-Daar), though I personally think Tharizdun is overused (he might not be overused in your own campaign).

I think Ghoresh Chasm is an opening to the original plane of evil from which the other lower planes grew. It could also contain an ancient race of evil older than any of the modern fiends, a baernaloth city (deep, deep beneath the chasm, far beneath Morglon-Daar or anything else that might be placed in it), the Far Realm, the plane of dreams, the Ordial Plane, a sleeping draeden, or anything else that preoccupies or interests you.

It might be something unexpected, like a buried plane of good long ago stolen by the forces of evil. Or a separate multiverse with radically different cosmological assumptions.

Quote:
-The same day he joins the Fated, Duke Rowan Darkwood suggest that Factol Emma Oakwright step down and name him the new Factol. She does. **Questions -Is Emma still around? What is she doing? I read about her brother, Aram, but not her. -Did she leave because of magic charms, blackmail, did Darkwood offer her something in exchange or did Darkwood just present a great argument? Did they ever officially say?

I think it hints strongly that she was blackmailed. My impression is that Emma wasn't really a nice person, and Rowan Darkwood probably felt he was perfectly justified in getting rid of her using her own crimes as weapons. In The Factol's Manifesto, Darkwood says he "told her a few things she ought to know," and I assume these were crimes of hers that he had learned.

Quote:
-This seems like this would be a huge change to the status quo. But perhaps because it would be such a huge change, it doesn't seem like there wasn't many ramifications to affect the Planescape universe. Yes I know that it offically happened; but really has anything REALLY changed?

Since fiends in 3rd edition lack the near-universal Teleport Without Error ability that 2nd edition ones had, then arguably yes, there was a permanent change.

Quote:
-Potential idea: Is there are parallel creature for the planes of good that allow celestials to cross the planes?

Maybe. The Maeldur is itself a celestial, of course, so if celestials have the secret of true teleportation, the Maeldur presumedly gets its own powers from the same place that other celestials do. That means if celestials lost their ability, fiends would lose theirs.

The Maeldur works by knowing the true names of the beings it teleports, so apparently teleportation is a form of truename magic. Perhaps it involves transposing the names of places with other places of the same numerical value, in a form of planar gematria performed using the language of creation.

Quote:
(Perhaps that is really what the guardinals guard in Elysium’s swamp? Stories of the uber-hydra being a myth. If such a being held the True Names of every celestial, it would be disasterous if the forces of evil controlled or even killed it)

There are a lot of different things in the swamps of Belieren. The Hydra of Legend (called the Mother of Serpents in Todd "Shemeska the Marauder" Stewart's campaign) is one of them. The birthplace of the quesars is another, the primordial clay from which they were formed, and other things might be formed as well. There are also secret fortresses of the leonals, probably, and much else. There might also be imprisoned archfiends, portals to secret heavens and otherwise unknown planar layers, and the source of the multiverse's pain kept safe in the bosom of ultimate good. And yes, the source of celestial teleportation might be there too.

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Re: Assorted questions

Hyena of Ice wrote:
^^The Hydra of Legend isn't a myth unless all beasts of legend are myths.

Well, of course they're myths. Legends, anyway - that's why they're called that. That doesn't mean they're not real.

The idea for the monsters of legend, basically, is that in the original myths of the Lernaean Hydra, the Gorgon Medusa, the Theban Sphinx and so on, these creatures were unique and utterly terrifying, with powers completely outside the experience of those who retold the stories. In D&D, of course, there are entire races of hydras, medusas, and sphinxes, so the myths don't mean as much unless they're myths of creatures far more potent than the ordinary forms of those monsters that adventurers will be familiar with.

So the monsters of legend could be legends made flesh, a coalescence of all the stories and terrors that have built up around a particular species. The Sphinx of Legend exists because of all the awe and fear and reverence mortals feel for sphinxes, all those stories and whispers and rumors and riddles become a living creature who will always exist, reforming as long as stories of powerful sphinxes that threatened epic heroes are told.

Another option is that the beast of legend is the first example of each species: the Sphinx of Legend is the first sphinx, the daughter of Typhon and Echidna. The Medusas of Legend are the (surviving) Gorgons themselves, daughters of Phorcys and Ceto, sisters to Echidna and the Graiae.

Quote:
I would assume that such a creature does exist and is under the control of the Angels/Aasimon, who are the celestial equivalent of the Yugoloths as far as role (the guardinals are the default NG celestials, but the Angels are the "celestial overlord" race)

Aasimon are servants of the gods and therefore have little role in purely planar (as opposed to divine) affairs, except in Mount Celestia where aasimon and archons belong to the same hierarchy. The Hydra of Legend should definitely be under the control of the guardinals, since it is a matter for Elysium as a whole rather than the gods of Elysium. I don't know what you mean by "celestial overlord" - the rulers of the guardinals are Talisid and his companions.

Quote:
That brings up something I've been meaning to ask you, Rip. What are all the Beasts of Legend established in Planescape thus far? I am only aware of that damned hydra plus the Androsphinx on Air. I ask because I intend to place a bunch on the Inner Planes (esp. ice).

The concept that became the beasts of legend originated in the 1st edition Manual of the Planes, which noted that extra-strength monsters from Greek and elvish myth could be found in Olympus/Arvandor, and similarly enhanced monsters from Norse myth can be found on Gladsheim. That being the case, I think most of them ought to be found near the realms of the gods from the culture from which they originated. Of course, the hydra already breaks that guideline, since it's in Elysium rather than Olympus, but the guardinals brought it there from elsewhere.

The sphinx could be on the Plane of Air because of the presence of the Egyptian god Shu, but I'm not completely convinced it's the Androsphinx of Legend that they're talking about on page 24. It says it's a "mighty, double-winged, 50-foot-long androsphinx whose ever word dealt mind-splitting pain to all around it" and that it "has the secrets of every wizard spell ever created etched on the undersides of its wing feathers." This is certainly impressive, and the sphinx is described as "legendary," but I'm not sure why a monster of legend would be etched with spells, or have a double set of wings, when the legends the sphinx is typically associated with don't mention those things. Usually monsters of legend are just buffed-up standard versions of those creatures. I think the androsphinx on the Plane of Air might have another origin entirely; maybe it was Boccob's pet, or Thoth's. There's also the creature simply called the Sphinx in the Egyptian realm of Heliopolis (as described in Planes of Law). He's an androsphinx of great power, a proxy of all the Egyptian gods which might be more likely to be the Sphinx of Legend. It's conceivable the androsphinx described in The Inner Planes and the Sphinx of Heliopolis on Arcadia are one and the same.

There's a gynosphinx of legend described in the Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II in the "monster of legend" entry (she has a beautiful Tony DiTerlizzi portrait on page 65).

The PSMCAII says "Hydras, chimaeras, gorgons, medusae - any number of bashers have encountered these creatures in the Prime Material Plane, but there aren't so many of 'em out on the Great Ring. In fact, there's usually just one, and that's the archetype for all monsters of that sort, the one they made up all the stories about. Creatures of this type're known on the planes as the mosnters of legend; they're found throughout the Great Wheel, in places where mighty heroes can try to best them. The hills and gorges of Olympus, the first layer of Arborea, are home to unique examples of each of the creatures above. Similar examples for almost all pantheons can be fou nd in their own celestial or infernal realms."

So that's a hydra, chimera, gorgon, and medusa accounted for in Arborea (apparently the hydra's been brought to Elysium, as I mentioned). The entry also mentions the Nemean Lion, which would also logically be in Arborea, and the basilisk, kraken (who belongs on Ysgard and is not to be confused with Cetus, the sea monster Perseus killed), a serpent that fits the description of Ladon, and Cerberus is also defined there as a monster of legend (Cerberus is, of course, in Pluton).

Other creatures not described as such that should logically be considered monsters of legend include Egder, the eagle of Yggdrasil; the falcon Vedrfolnir which sits on Egder's beak; Fafnir, Fenris Wolf, and Garm from Norse mythology; possibly a Ratatosk of Legend; Hati Hrodvitnisson and Skoll; the Chimera; Orthrus; the Caucasian eagle; Cetus; the Crommyonian sow; the Colchian Dragon; Scylla; the Teumessian fox; the Golden Hind of Artemis; the Erymanthian Boar; the Stymphalian Birds; Harpies of Legend; the Cretan Bull; and the Mares of Diomedes. From elven myth, we might see a cooshee and cait shee of legend.

Because monsters of legend are creatures tied to specific myth-cycles, you'll have to explain what they're doing in the Inner Planes, which is usually far from the mythoi that birthed them. Since monsters of legend are sometimes created for specific purposes, they might be sent there to fulfill them - but why in the Inner Planes in particular? I assume you're having gods and heroes put them in deep freeze in the Plane of Ice in order to keep them out of trouble?

Hyena of Ice's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2009-09-25
Re: Assorted questions

Aasimon are servants of the gods and therefore have little role in purely planar (as opposed to divine) affairs, except in Mount Celestia where aasimon and archons belong to the same hierarchy. The Hydra of Legend should definitely be under the control of the guardinals, since it is a matter for Elysium as a whole rather than the gods of Elysium. I don't know what you mean by "celestial overlord" - the rulers of the guardinals are Talisid and his companions.

The Angels/Aasimon are concerned with the good-aligned Upper Planes in general rather than just one plane, and they're somewhat the "overlords" if you will of the celestial races, much like the Yugoloths are the overlords of the fiends.
Also, while the Angels are indeed servants of the gods, they, like the other celestial races (at least if you go by the BoED) have their own agendas as well (which for the most part don't clash with those of the gods).

The concept that became the beasts of legend originated in the 1st edition Manual of the Planes, which noted that extra-strength monsters from Greek and elvish myth could be found in Olympus/Arvandor, and similarly enhanced monsters from Norse myth can be found on Gladsheim. That being the case, I think most of them ought to be found near the realms of the gods from the culture from which they originated. Of course, the hydra already breaks that guideline, since it's in Elysium rather than Olympus, but the guardinals brought it there from elsewhere.

Darn, then. But then how do you explain the Androsphinx of Legend on elemental Air? Shouldn't that thing be on Arcadia, where most of the Middleastern and central Asian pantheons reside?

Because monsters of legend are creatures tied to specific myth-cycles, you'll have to explain what they're doing in the Inner Planes, which is usually far from the mythoi that birthed them. Since monsters of legend are sometimes created for specific purposes, they might be sent there to fulfill them - but why in the Inner Planes in particular? I assume you're having gods and heroes put them in deep freeze in the Plane of Ice in order to keep them out of trouble?
No, I was naively unaware that they're mostly limited to the planes of the pantheons that birthed them (mostly due to the Androsphinx). I was assuming that all flagship magical beasts had Legendary forefathers, thus I was thinking about putting a Winter Wolf of legend on Ice, though since they're tied to giants they probably belong on Ysgard.
Not really sure where the giant raven of legend would go, though, as I think there is more than one culture with a giant raven (also, the giant eagle of legend could just as easily be of Amerindian myth, so how does one reconcile with that?)
Then of course there's reconciling with beasts of legend that belong to multiple pantheons. This becomes more of a problem with creatures found in both Persian and Hindu mythology, such as the Garuda.
It's less a problem with Egyptian vs. Sumerian vs. Babylonian since they're all located on Arcadia, but it does become a problem when the myths are shared between the Greeks, Persians, and Egyptians, whose pantheons are on nearly opposite upper planes.
It's also a problem with some creatures shared between Celtic and Norse/Saxon mythology.

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Re: Assorted questions

Quote:
The Angels/Aasimon are concerned with the good-aligned Upper Planes in general rather than just one plane, and they're somewhat the "overlords" if you will of the celestial races, much like the Yugoloths are the overlords of the fiends.

The obvious counterparts of the yugoloths are the guardinals. Even the major yugoloth castes (those that can reproduce sexually) have their counterparts in guardinal castes: arcanaloths and ursinals, ultroloths and leonals, mezzoloths and cervidals, and nycaloths and avorals.

That said, I don't think either race are really "overlords" of any other race. Yugoloths and guardinals both manipulate their lawful and chaotic counterparts, but they don't really rule them. The aasimon have little to do with other celestial races, except for the archons.

Aasimon are divine servants; evil deities have their own servants, though they're capable of using/creating twisted aasimon. I don't really think of them as a cohesive race; each one is manufactured separately by their deities (usually using petitioners as base material), and if they happen to have similar forms, it's because the good-aligned deities get along well enough that they don't mind each other copying from one another's work. But a solar serving Ra was created by Ra from a petitioner of Ra, and doesn't really have anything but form in common with an aasimon serving Garl Glittergold, Ishtar, or Paladine.

Quote:
Darn, then. But then how do you explain the Androsphinx of Legend on elemental Air? Shouldn't that thing be on Arcadia, where most of the Middleastern and central Asian pantheons reside?

As I said above, there is an Androsphinx of Legend on Arcadia, in Heliopolis. The sphinx in Elemental Plane of Air might be the same creature, or it might be unrelated. Maybe it's just a powerful, magical sphinx.

Quote:
Not really sure where the giant raven of legend would go, though, as I think there is more than one culture with a giant raven (also, the giant eagle of legend could just as easily be of Amerindian myth, so how does one reconcile with that?)

I think every mythos should have its own set of Beasts of Legend. Usually there's only one of each beast (only one hydra, and only one Nemean Lion), but in cases where more than one culture has similar legends, there can be more than one. There are a number of different legendary wolves in Norse myth. Greek myth has two surviving Gorgons - Stheno and Euryale - who should both be "Medusae of Legend."

When you get to mundane animals like ravens and eagles, though, I'm tempted to just make them animal lords and put them in the Beastlands.

Planescape, Dungeons & Dragons, their logos, Wizards of the Coast, and the Wizards of the Coast logo are ©2008, Wizards of the Coast, a subsidiary of Hasbro Inc. and used with permission.