Asmodeus = Ahriman?

13 posts / 0 new
Last post
Anime Fan's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2007-06-13
Asmodeus = Ahriman?

In the pre-3rd edition book A Guide To Hell, Asmodeus was originally named Ahriman and was the partner of Jazirian in creating the cosmos. They fought, and Ahriman fell into the lowest layer of the Nine Hells, where his immense form still lies. Later he changed his name to Asmodeus (as a diguise?), and created the ruse that he is only another of of the Lords of the Nine... this version of events is also hinted at in the 3rd Edition Manual Of The Planes, but not in The Book Of Vile Darkness... Is this canonical? If so, then the stats given for Asmodeus in The Book Of Vile Darkness are actually some sort of avatar and not the true form of Asmodeus/Ahriman... Could Asmodeus actually be the Serpent that Vecna talks to?

420
420's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-06-27
Asmodeus = Ahriman?

Whatever you decide to be canon is canon.

However, the way it is written about in 3rd edition is that the origin of Asmodeus in Manual of the Planes and the one in Fiendish Codex II are brutally suppressed rumors. Both are probably just fabrications propagated by Asmodeus himself to draw attention away from his true nature.

-420

Dhampire's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2007-07-02
Asmodeus = Ahriman?

'Anime Fan' wrote:
Could Asmodeus actually be the Serpent that Vecna talks to?

I like the idea of a third serpent that Vecna talks to.
Rule-of-Threes and all that.

Dalmosh's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2011-03-13
Re: Asmodeus = Ahriman?

There is also Ahrimanes Chief of the Cacodaemons, mentioned very briefly in the Appendix at the back of Fiendish Codex 1. I don't know if Ahrimanes is featured in any pure canon beyond this, but I tend to assume this to be a reference to Ahrimanes the fallen planetar featured in Green Ronin's Hordes of Gehenna.
The similarity in name to Ahriman always suggested to me that Ahrimanes was either the fallen first lieutenant of Ahriman (as angel of retributive law ala Paradise Lost) or as I prefer, an earlier avatar of Ahriman (as serpent of creation) representing his growing evil.
I don't know what a Cacodaemon is in D&D (but if my players ever visit Ahriman-abad they are likely to encounter cyclopic pumpkin monsters that spit explosive gas balls), but the word made me assume him to be a 'loth of some kind. Linking him to Gehenna makes him a bit more relevant to Baator, as he would still be a law inclined neutral evil. He would be one of the first inhabitants of Gehenna and would probably interact with the General in a manner rather like the Baernoloths.
So I see Ahrimanes as a first and more ancient avatar of the evil in Ahriman that predated his fall. Asmodeus Himself I tend to treat as a much stronger and more lawful avatar of the slumbering Serpent, perhaps coaxed into being by one of the Baernoloths such as Chorazin Thrice-Damned inspired by the existence of Ahrimanes.

Hyena of Ice's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2009-09-25
Re: Asmodeus = Ahriman?

I don't think Ahriman and Ahrimanes are actually related, they're probably just two separate authors' go at the mythological being from Zoroastrian mythology.

The Pact Primeval is the one that makes the most sense in the Planescape and general D&D setting since as a general rule the powers did not create the Multiverse, they were either born from it or born from the beliefs of mortals, while the first powers were borne spontaneously during the Multiverse's creation (much in the same way as the Baernaloth's). At most, the powers are able to create races of beings, strongholds, or over a LONG period of time, a layer or level of a plane, or a demiplane. The creation cycle in the general D&D and Planescape cosmology is extremely complicated and a result of multiple variables. The Inner, Transitive, and Material planes are easy to trace because they were all born from the Ethereal (which contrary to On Hallowed Ground, would have been THE first plane since it is possibility and creation incarnate, and the Elemental planes lack the building blocks needed to create possibility-- not to mention that without possibility, the elemental planes could not be created.
The Outer Planes are much more difficult to define, and there were a lot of variables involved in their creation. It's likely however-- and certainly it is my view as seen in my Timeline topic, that the Protogenoi/primordial powers were responsible for creating the Outer Planes or at least parts of them, and before then they would have been a void or part of the Astral plane and the territory of the Draedens. This would be the perfect catalyst leading to the war between the primordial powers and the Draeden. This would have taken place before the existence of mortals.)

Idran's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2007-06-10
Re: Asmodeus = Ahriman?

It's kind of weird, but one way I sometimes like to see things, the powers might have created the multiverse if only because their faithful believed they did.

That is, powers came into existence because of mortals. And the belief of mortals retroactively rewrote the history of the multiverse so that it was created by the powers.

I don't have this as canon with even my own games, but it's an idea I like to pick up and play with every now and again in my head. I think I got the idea from someone here on this forum, but I can't remember who anymore.

Hyena of Ice's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2009-09-25
Re: Asmodeus = Ahriman?

^^That's even more of a headache to think about than the effects of time travel.

There is also Ahrimanes Chief of the Cacodaemons, mentioned very briefly in the Appendix at the back of Fiendish Codex 1. I don't know if Ahrimanes is featured in any pure canon beyond this, but I tend to assume this to be a reference to Ahrimanes the fallen planetar featured in Green Ronin's Hordes of Gehenna.
I don't know what a Cacodaemon is in D&D (but if my players ever visit Ahriman-abad they are likely to encounter cyclopic pumpkin monsters that spit explosive gas balls)

I do not recall if the Cacodemons feature in 1E, but in Necromancer Games's stuff (such as City of Brass), they are indeed a type of Yugoloth, it appears as an all-black, bald humanoid.
Even beyond that, if you take the original Greco-Roman myth into account, the Cacodemons (unless you decide to make them their own separate species) fit most closely with the old-fashioned/Gray Waste style Yugoloths, as in Greco-Roman mythology, they are spirits/personifications of the negative things unleashed from Pandora's box-- many of which are not sins per say-- things like pestilence, insanity, toil, battle confusion, old age, famine, curses, pain, helplessness, nightmares, etc, in addition to sins. Also, in Greco-Roman myth, the vast majority of them (Phobos and Deimos aka panic and dread being among the exceptions) are children of Nyx or Eris (Eris herself is a cacodemon), who are Protogenoi (the first class of gods which were viewed more as abstract personifications such as ocean, mountains, darkness, creation, etc. rather than anthropomorphic beings-- in D&D terms they would be elemental beings) If one were to encorporate this into D&D, it could result in some VERY interesting relationships between the Yugoloths and Nyx and Eris, since, for one thing, Charon is supposedly one of Nyx's children. It might also raise a question as to whether Nyx and Eris have slowly turned themselves into Yugoloths in a similar vein that Pazuzu has turned himself from an Obyrith into a Tanar'ri (and might explain why Nyx and Eris are depicted as anthropomorphic beings unlike, say-- Erebus and Styx) Perhaps secretly, Nyx played a role in the creation of the Yugoloths-- maybe she or one of her aspects is also in fact a Baernaloth-- now that would be quite interesting. (it's worth noting that Nyx and Erebus are both considered part of the Cthonoi, aka the underworld gods, and originally all the cacodemons were as well. Though Eris, Phobos, and Deimos are considered part of the Ouroi along with Ares-- that is, the sky gods.)

Dalmosh's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2011-03-13
Re: Asmodeus = Ahriman?

Once again Hyena I am positively dazzled by your rabidly drooling knowledge of esoterically epic trivia. Your players are lucky people indeed! I have often struggled to do much with the Grey Waste layer of Pluton and how to reconcile or envisage interactions between the 'loths and the followers of the God Hades. This alone gives me some interesting ideas by cementing some links and possible history between the 'loths and the Greek Pantheon. ...And apologies all for cross-posting.

Hyena of Ice's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2009-09-25
Re: Asmodeus = Ahriman?

Nyx is mostly independent of Hades, though. She's one of the Cthonioi, but she doesn't answer to him... or ANYONE.
Also, I'm not sure that Hades has much interaction with the 'Loths-- Hecate probably does, however (and the hags, too). Hades aside from the kidnapping of Persephone is pretty True Neutral and Kelemvor-like (though much more apathetic). His primary concern is maintaining the balance between death and birth/creation. Hecate is a bit different, but still under his command, and for the most part she obeys his rules. She controls armies of ghosts and demons, but the ghosts are already bound to Hades and are simply gated to the Prime on certain nights. Neither Hecate nor Hades could possibly be Baernaloths, as neither is old enough. Same goes for Annwan and Hel.

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Re: Asmodeus = Ahriman?

Charon is a 'loth, though (but maybe he replaced the original Charon?). As boatman of the rivers of the Greek Underworld (as well as most other lower planar rivers) Charon probably interacts with Hades on a regular basis.

Hyena of Ice's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2009-09-25
Re: Asmodeus = Ahriman?

I am well aware that Charon is an arch-yugoloth in the canon. Hence part of the reason I suggested that Nyx might secretly be one of the Baernaloths (she wouldn't be the one responsible for creating the General of Gehenna however)

Idran's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2007-06-10
Re: Asmodeus = Ahriman?

Right, Hyena, what Rip was saying was that because Charon is a 'loth, that Hades probably has regular interactions with them through Charon if nothing else.

Hyena of Ice's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2009-09-25
Re: Asmodeus = Ahriman?

Well, yes, obviously Charon has regular interactions with all the powers of the Gray Waste, with Hades in particular. Though Greco-Roman mythology generally represented Nyx and Hades as more or less indifferent to one another (they didn't seem to interact-- Nyx has her own misty-black castle in a corner of Hades which she and her entire family inhabits in the mythology) Nyx and her Cacodaemon children are likely to have a lot more interaction with Hecate since she often invokes them.
There's also likely to be interaction with Nyx's family through Thanatos.

Planescape, Dungeons & Dragons, their logos, Wizards of the Coast, and the Wizards of the Coast logo are ©2008, Wizards of the Coast, a subsidiary of Hasbro Inc. and used with permission.