Anything you actually LIKE about 4E?

It seems like 4e is blurring the lines between D&D and Miniatures. You could see WotC trying to bring the two closer together by the end of 3.5e, but the description ripvanwormer just gave, it makes it seem particularly like stats for miniature figures. Ah, Wizards of the Coast, kings of expensive collectible crap.

Wouldn't they just stand around waiting for you to come and kill them...

Well, completely remaking the system so that it's "hey look Harry Potter and WOW fans- it's just like your favorite media!" is something I like.

Oh, wait. No, it's not.

I like SOME of the simplification. There are rules that are overly complex.

That said, I'm NOT a moron, and I DON'T need a game that assumes I'll need my hands held the whole time.

Actually, it seems, that drow aren't elves anymore, but they have the Fey subtype.

I was going by the DDM RPG stats of the Dungeons of Dread set. It's possible that there are mistakes and omissions on many of those cards, but they do seem to summarize most of the 4e stats of each monster. I found it strange that the drow were described as "medium natural humanoids" rather than "medium fey humanoids".

And I found it interesting that Lamia (is it because they really want the Yuan-Ti to have a monopoly on almost everything snakey?) are now completely something different as half-scarab swarms that are "medium fey humanoids (undead)".

WotC posted an excerpt from 4E Monster Manual.

Check it out: Devils of 4th Edition

-420

(Very occasional poster)

It always seemed to me that alignment forced PS to shoehorn differences into the planes which really didn't exist, for example throwing Valhalla into some CG corner EXCEPT Loki, who obviously didn't fit in.

Well why not? Loki was intrinsic to the Valhalla fables and his lack of welcome was marginally related to his alignment. Odin didn't mind when he was using his "Chaotic Evil" to screw with the Giants. Examples of this exist in every pantheon.

A private peeve.

It will definately have a different feel by morphing the neighborhoods together, but I'm not dismissing it out of hand. The new partitions seem to make a sense, particularly the bit on Devils and Demons, Aberations and the Fey.

But perhaps that's novelty speaking.

I'm in the minority here, but here I go.

I love what they did with the Fey. I'm tired of Tinkerbell archtypes for the Sylvan races. Even Tinkerbell wasn't that good a girl. She was more then happy to off Wendy, who did nothing to here directly. Less goody goody, more Wild.

I'm reasonably happy with the condensing of the Shadow/Death/Negative dimensions. Why the duplications? This makes looking for souls one stop shopping instead of trying to figure out which Court of the Dead to go to.

I'm not too upset with the new proposals between Demons and Devils. Organized Chaos never made too much sense and the two were previously distinctions without a difference. Now their jobs are much different.

Not so sure about the gutting of the Astral or the morphing of the Ethereal. Was never too up on the Elemental planes anyway (strictly an outer planes fellow). But joinging them together. I don't have an opinion yet.

Of course, for me, Planescape wasn't about Outer Planes vs Inner planes, nor the Great Wheel. It was Factions and Sigil and the Lady and the Cant. Rubbing elbows with truly dreadful and horrifying creatures. Interacting with the truly mighty.

As long as travel is free and Sigil remains the Casablanca of the Planes; the fact that Asgard isn't geographically in the same place isn't particularly relevant.

I happen to like the Aberrant Plane. God's cast offs. The scraps of reality merged by magic in horrible ways. Reminds me of the Dungeon Dimensions in Pratchet.

I don't really like having only worlds that are catered specifically for humans to explore. I completely destroys suspension of disbelief and lowers the enjoyability of the whole experience.

Your whole rational seems to be, "Well I didn't get it, so it sucks." I mean, with that thinking you may as well ask "Why did god create the sun? I'm never going to go there."

Of course said extreme circumstances would most likely be very interesting.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that humans will be any less dominant than in every other generic fantasy game. Especially since now there is nowhere in the game that isn't suited to support human life.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying, but perhaps you misinterpreted the second of my quotes since it does seem open to misinterpretation. I didn't mean that the current version of the game has no worlds that are unsuited to human life, but that the one that is being hyped now does.

If that's not what you were talking about I have no idea.

I also don't understand why you think it's good that they're taking away something that other people liked just because you personally couldn't find a use for it.

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I absolutely agree, Berk. I'm not saying that all the dangerous planes are worthless, just that I didn't "like" the PEP or NEP. Seemed a half hearted rationalization. Thus the change in Cosmology in 4e doesn't "hit me where it hurts" with the contraction of of some of duties between the three into the Shadow Realm. 420 and Dire like it as it was.

It's odd that you mentioned the "throw the baddie in the NEP" because I could see that as one of it's few in game uses.

And as a launching point for quests and adding an element of uncertainty, sure, I see exactly what Lemming has to say. It keeps the players from skipping merrily into any odd portal which happens to open for them. How it should hinder this more then knowing that I could willy nilly put them into the Demonweb Pits, a Lich's Demi Plane, Bytopia (for evil dudes), or the Fated's Hall of Revenue Collection isn't exactly clear.

Wow. I'm not sure why there exists such confusion on this issue. Since I am the person trying to communicate, it's my responsibility to edit until things are clear.

I stated things I liked, for example ShadowFell, which filled the role of 4+ planes. 420 disagreed in that he saw the roles as purely disparate. Fine. I disagree with him, but it's all good. In my explanation, I mentioned that the PEP and NEP did nothing for me; it was an inelegant "source" of magical power. Power needs to come from somewhere, Gygax made us these two places as explanations (or rationalizations). Even gave them good/evil flavors.

Dire Lemon seemed to take this as meaning I didn't understand the role of those planes, or that I rejoiced in their being cut because "I didn't get it". I would offer that "getting" and "liking" (though I used misleading terms) are two seperate things.

When I look at any element of any Plane/Game, whatever, I always look at it as a DM from the perspective of "does it evoke wonder" and "can I use this element in the game". The PEP and NEP does little enough for either. YMMV. The Elemental Plane of Fire is difficult to use without killing PCs, but does evoke such wonder. The City of Brass is quite the evokotive bit of fluff, for example, though the majority of the elemental planes (You are in a big puddle of water....You are still in a big puddle of water...Yep, big puddle goes FOR-EV-ER!)...needs some help to make it memorable except as a background concept. Dire Lemon likes these places and he isn't wrong...but I think he overlooks how difficult they are to use.

But just because the new Cosmology is different doesn't make it automatically suck.

Imagine for a moment that the Necromantic/Illusory energy which comes from the Fell is originally created by Soul Slurry, the dissipated life energies of the desceased being tapped into by the approprately flavor of Wizard/Warlock? Simple, elegant, evocative.

I'm amazed that there is so much conflict on my ability to appreciate ShadowFell, or so much conflict because I don't like aspects of PSCS.

Ok, I got it now. And I rather agree with you: the many of the inner planes were difficult to use due to their sheer deadliness, and were underdeveloped as a result (As an aside, I found mongoose game's Classic Play, Book of the Planes, to have some very evocative fluff concerning the Inner Planes, energy planes included).

I agree with Berk, though: You don't necessarily have to be able to travel to a plane to make that plane useful to have around.

In the end this is really a case of Varying Milage, as you noted.

Instead I'll just note that I do not think this.

That said, a much larger issue then losing the Energy Planes or the morphing of the inner spheres into one mass is the loss of the multiple prime material planes.

Without the multiple pantheons, the changes will be much harder to integrate without a major retrofit.

A quick 2-cents: I do like the + and - energy planes. In fact, the PEP and it's odd type of danger (overload of healing energy) figured prominantly in my PS game, and was in fact one of the most memorable scenes (PCs having to self-inflict 2d6 damage every round, good times). That said, I am a bit disapoited in the loss and melding of so many planes, but, meh. Its not like my own campaign is going to be destroyed just because WOTC is coming up with a new cosmology.

Yes, and perhaps I wasn't particularly clear. Dire Lemon asserted that his Inner Planes needed to be lethal or he wasn't happy (and jump in if I am mischaracterizing you, Lemon). Because he feels the Multiverse shouldn't just be human centered, he wanted to see deadly places too.

My response wasn't to discredit that idea (how does one dismiss a preference?) but to observe that if one makes the Inner Planes useful, i.e. a place for characters to go and interact, one either goes to the 1%, which IS where the action is, or to load up on so many elemental gimcracks as to make the lethal nature almost irrelevant. Which to my mind kind of defeats the purpose of having it lethal in the first place.

Don't share your view, but that isn't surprising.

The "Outer Planes" are now the Astral Dominions. Totally differentiated is the Elemental Chaos, which is an entirely different Plane (the Inner Planes). If by "purely elemental" campaigns, you mean dealing with only one element, that's a DM function. If you want the players to only interact with water, I'm sure you can find a place which is purely water in the Infinite Chaos.

Except now, the elements have more room to interact, with borders instead of random portals. Or not. It's your game.

As far as the "fiends fiends fiends" thing...that's more of a function of the game. Most players are good or neutral...or if evil, their own personal evil. Fiends are easy whipping boys because most guys don't want to give an angel a wedgie...though that would be interesting in it's way. Not because they like angels, just that they don't want the Powers to come calling. There is little chance of that with fiends.

There is no Wheel anymore, but the ShadowFell and FeyWild are very similar to the Outlands, with the BeastLands and some Purgatory and Energy aspects thrown in. The Astral is the Outer Planes; the Elemental Chaos is the inner. Still stronly differentiated. But instead of radient planes and oozy planes or ash (ASH?) they are properties of the whole. Hate to say it, but Ash didn't need a full plane. YMMV.

Back in the day, when printing was first being tried, the printers ran into a problem. When they sewed a leather sleeve for the inker, it left a seam which left bare spots on the finished product.

So, to avoid constantly having to reink the the block twice, the printers took the skin from the pizzle of a bull, which was perfectly round and the proper size without the need to sew up one end. So, markless printing.

Thus, with that kind of ingenutity, it comes as no surprise that PCs and DM find SOME use for the Energy Planes. It does not speak to their (from a gaming standpoint) inherent usefullness. And I almost spit on my keyboard when I thought about PCs hacking themselves to bits to keep from exploding. Did my heart good.

My thoughts on them as powering magic might be a holdover from 1st edition days. Removing that aspect just makes it more useless...IMO.

Archdukechocula,

Well, when it come to the Planes of Energy, Ash, Radience, Lightning, Ooze, Those Bits of Gum Under a Desk, Dryer Lint, Smoke, Ganja Smoke, Hickory Smoke, Diaper Wipes etc, then No, I don't like those planes per se.

The Big Four have a use. And I always like the Ethereal more then the Astral...because it interacted with the PMP and other interesting locations. But games are about stories...which means about people. And while how people face big scary Cosmic Forces is A story...it gets repetitive if done over and over again. Particularly if it isn't intelligent. Now a CONFLICT of Cosmic Forces with people in the middle...(salivates profusely)

Oh no, loss of limbs would be no good, the PCs had to figure a way to do said damage, every round, without loosing pieces, for several hours. On a plane with no gravity, there was quite the cloud of blood. Which, incidently, stayed alive outside the body and therefore did not clot.

So, in response to your criticism of the inner planes, overall, I would have to respond by sort-of-agreeing-but-major-counterpoint. As with any setting, it is what you make of it. Heavens and Hells might be the more iconic types of alternate-realities, but I relish the prospect of being creative with odd settings. That is what makes Planescape so attactive. Based in Sigil, the PCs in the (2e) campaign I've been running a few years now have been to [edit: I was going to list, but my geekdom has limits :roll: ]

Anyway, the other point I want to make is this: a cosmology is way of envisioning the connections between alternate planes of existance and just that. The Great Ring/Prime/Inner cosmology is works because planewalkers can use the map, as it were. It is no more or less right than the World-Ash, Mount Olympus, or any other way of looking at things, including the upcoming 4e.

Well, its hard to take your critique of the Inner Planes seriously when you don't have the definitive source on them. You continue to dismiss them as planes of "dry lint", but this is really a poor comparison. There is a lot of potential for the quasi- and para- planes discussed in that book, in fact I'd personally rate it as one of the best D&D books for tackling such a topic.

I don't see anything worth paying for in 4e's cosmology but I'll have to reserve final judgement until Dec. when the 4e MotP comes out. Then again I have the Exalted source book so I already have the primoridal vs god thing covered...

The Guide to the inner planes is definitely a better source than the PSCS, but ultimately, it's up to the DM to make place interesting, and there are no shortage of ways to do that with any plane.