Like, someone performing a summoning in Sigil, leaving/entering the city without a portal, or other illegal actions?
Any Planescape adventures/books where the rules are broken?
Yeah, plane-shifting in or out of Sigil is definitely a no-no. Teleportation WITHIN the city from site to site is just fine, however - that's why the Harmonium has to use Planar Mancatchers and Shifter's Manacles to keep prisoners from just 'porting away. I was thinking of violations found in official Planescape material, however, not private campaigns and such. For instance, Factol Hashkar entry in the Factol's Manifesto book gave him five special "loophole" powers, one of which allowed him to summon a group of Modrons to his aid. It's stated that he's used the power several times, which would be fine except that it's also stated that he NEVER leaves Sigil, so the summoning had to have happened THERE. In 2E D&D, doesn't summoning always bring a creature from another plane? Or could he grab Modrons already in Sigil? Also, the Sigil and Beyond book in the Planescape boxed set states that you could WISH yourself out of Sigil (that is, cast the Wish spell to leave.) I'll have to check on the page number for that reference...
Well I think that carefully worded wish would be fine. You wish that you stoped existing in Sigil and start existing somewhere else.
Anyways back to your topic: In one of adventures of our DM we (PCs) managed to destroy one of the Sigil's portals by destroying its arch, wich resulted in tear in fabric of reality that sealed (healed?) itself in couple of rounds by sucking in surounding matter.
I think that later our DM learned that you can't realy destroy Lady's portal, so later we never managed to pull that stunt again.
As of your summoning question: summoning works in Sigil but only if desired creature is inside city when the spell is cast. As a rule of thumb DM should probably look rarety of desired creature in old PS monster manual, or he could use one of many Sigil planar NPCs. In other words summoning is great way to make new enemies out of your planar neighbours.
One-eyed, one-horned, flying, purple people eater says: "Monsters are nature's way for keeping XPs fresh."
Technically the wish could have you stumble across a hitherto unknown temporary portal to your desired destination with a simple key (like "a pair of pants").
Pants of the North!
Pretty sure you can destroy portals in Sigil - in Uncaged: Faces of Sigil there's a character that's made it his life's mission to destroy all of them, IIRC. So, either your DM is wrong, or there's a rule broken
Well, now that you mention it I think that our DM might be wrong, you see that NPC (if my memory serves me right, it hasn been ages since last time I read Faces of Sigil) used those weird Portal Inhibitor Stones thingies that made portals inert, and I think that those stones were made from destroyed portals.
One-eyed, one-horned, flying, purple people eater says: "Monsters are nature's way for keeping XPs fresh."
In Torment (which is no book, but an adventure... ) the portal lens and the labyrinth of the modrons seem to be technically broken, as the lens brings you from Sigil to the modron labyrinth and the engineer there can teleport you to any accessible part of the City of Doors. Well, to me that's an example of how you can breake rules to enhance an adventure.
But I believe there was something in a book that seemed odd, just can't remember what it was, at the moment...
"La la la, I'm a girl, I'm a pretty little girl!"
--Bel the Pit Fiend, Lord of the First (in a quiet hour of privacy)
Squaff, you are right - they are indeed made from destroyed portals. However, I have a solution: what if the LADY destroyed those portals? Then there's no problem - if She can make 'em, she sure as Sigil can destroy 'em! As far as other characters doing in portals, you can either rule that the Lady allows it on a case-by-case basis, or that She will punish the character later, or maybe BOTH! In any case, the Lady can certainly bring back a destroyed portal if She so chooses, so it's not like you can really thwart Her in that reguard. A portal is only really gone for good as long as the Lady sees fit to allow it...
I like your reasoning Anime Fan.
And while we are at it let's not forget that Lady's rulership over Sigil was once contested with god Aoskar (presumably). So I guess when she put him in dead book she also destroyed portals to Sigil that he created. Hence those portal stones that nullify portals. Coincidental side effect or Aoskar's last act of defiance towards Lady it is for any one to decide.
Also let's consider this: Sigil's portals are not only ones in multiverse, and many poverful beings can create their own (there is even feat Create Portal wich enables mages to create their own permanent gates).
One-eyed, one-horned, flying, purple people eater says: "Monsters are nature's way for keeping XPs fresh."
I believe one of the two Dungeon Planescape adventures featured people teleporting or Plane Shifting into Sigil from outside it, but I can't remember the details and I don't have either handy, I'm afraid.
There's the Shifters Manacles and Planar Mancatchers that were statted out in a couple Planescape products (Well of Worlds, Planewalker's Handbook, and I think one other), which are said to be used by the Harmonium in Sigil to keep Gith and other such creatures from Plane Shifting away when being arrested. Technically it's not a violation in and of itself, but the very fact that they need a magic item to keep them from Shifting away from Sigil doesn't make any sense, especially since you can't shift within a plane and so it wouldn't simply be to keep them from jumping elsewhere in Sigil.
Oh, and there was the Blood War novel trilogy, the second part of which featured the main character riding some sort of magic tree seed into Sigil from the Lower Planes (not through a portal, they explicitly came from the gap in Sigil's ring). But I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one to ignore that trilogy in canon overall as it is.
There's the Shifters Manacles and Planar Mancatchers that were statted out in a couple Planescape products (Well of Worlds, Planewalker's Handbook, and I think one other), which are said to be used by the Harmonium in Sigil to keep Gith and other such creatures from Plane Shifting away when being arrested. Technically it's not a violation in and of itself, but the very fact that they need a magic item to keep them from Shifting away from Sigil doesn't make any sense, especially since you can't shift within a plane and so it wouldn't simply be to keep them from jumping elsewhere in Sigil.
I'd say they use the manacles and mancatchers to keep their captives from shifting away to other places within Sigil.
"La la la, I'm a girl, I'm a pretty little girl!"
--Bel the Pit Fiend, Lord of the First (in a quiet hour of privacy)
There's the Shifters Manacles and Planar Mancatchers that were statted out in a couple Planescape products (Well of Worlds, Planewalker's Handbook, and I think one other), which are said to be used by the Harmonium in Sigil to keep Gith and other such creatures from Plane Shifting away when being arrested. Technically it's not a violation in and of itself, but the very fact that they need a magic item to keep them from Shifting away from Sigil doesn't make any sense, especially since you can't shift within a plane and so it wouldn't simply be to keep them from jumping elsewhere in Sigil.
I'd say they use the manacles and mancatchers to keep their captives from shifting away to other places within Sigil.
No, I already mentioned that. You can't use Plane Shift as a teleport, it can only go to other planes. And the manacles and mancatchers only stop Plane Shift, they don't stop teleportation.
The Harmonium presumably put them on so that if they go through a portal it is not an issue. Not only is there the chance of randomly going through one by accident, but also they may feel the need to take people out of Sigil to be punished. Though that would probably be more the Mercykiller remit.
I'd imagine they use those devices more on Arcadia and Orthos.
"They won praises that never grow old, the most splendid of sepulchres – not the sepulchre in which their bodies are laid, but where their glory remains eternal in men’s minds, always there on the right occasion to stir others to speech or to action. For famous men have the whole earth as their memorial: it is not only the inscriptions on their graves in their own country that mark them out.”
- Pericles’ Funeral Oration, 431BC.
Is this thread "why the rule-breaking isn't really rule-breaking?", or "where are the rules broken?"
Yeah, you're right for the manacles and mancatcher that it's easy to explain why they could make sense. It's possible for almost all of these to figure out an explanation for them. But I don't think Anime Fan wanted ways to fix places where it seems like the Sigil travel prohibition was broken. Just a list of places where it was broken without the source itself explaining it away. And since it doesn't say any of those explanations in Well of Worlds or Planewalker's Handbook (though again, they're reasonable explanations, and pretty much what I use anyway for those items), I think the mancatchers and manacles qualify.
Well, now that you mention it I think that our DM might be wrong, you see that NPC (if my memory serves me right, it hasn been ages since last time I read Faces of Sigil) used those weird Portal Inhibitor Stones thingies that made portals inert, and I think that those stones were made from destroyed portals.
I believe it was also stated there you can destroy a portal in a less spectacular way. You just need to remove the bounded space. Destroying an archway should do, as well as bricking it up.
True. Compleatly forgot about that.
One-eyed, one-horned, flying, purple people eater says: "Monsters are nature's way for keeping XPs fresh."
True. Compleatly forgot about that. (drat, double post again)
One-eyed, one-horned, flying, purple people eater says: "Monsters are nature's way for keeping XPs fresh."
Summoning things inside Sigil could make for some interesting scenarios when the previously summoned creatures seek out the spell-caster to give him a good beating as a warning to not do that again.
Hmm - I've been rereading In the Cage, and there's one thing that contradicts what I remember reading elsewhere. Here is says that if you fall/are thrown off the edge of Sigil you fall forever. I'm fairly certain I've read somewhere else that if you go over the edge you'll reappear in a random place across the Planes at some point. Anyone know the dark of this?
Anyone know the dark of this?
Some cutters say this, some cutters say that. And then some planewalker appears, claiming she fell off the edge of Sigil, woke up in Pandesmos and headed right back to the Cage...
Probably it's just one of the mysteries where no one really knows the truth. Besides that, I believe it's stated in either the 3.5 DMG or the Planar Handbook that you land on a random plane.
"La la la, I'm a girl, I'm a pretty little girl!"
--Bel the Pit Fiend, Lord of the First (in a quiet hour of privacy)
The important question here is, "why do you ask?"
As GM you can do anything you like and 2E wasn't obsessed with following rules when it came to doing something cool for an adventure. I would not typically allow teleportation into Sigil with anything less than an artifact, and summoning only usually works if it can grab something from elsewhere in the city - but if you need these things to be possible, then make them so ... that is the power and responsibility of the GM.
Here's two more flubs to throw at 'cha... in Faction War, when Factol Karan of the Chaosmen is arrested by the Harmonium, the author mistakenly calls his manacles "Planar Mancatchers", which is actually the long grasping pole device. Not a RULES flub, per se, but there it is. A genuine rules violation does occur in the Hellbound adventure "Squaring the Circle", where the Maledur teleports himself and the PCs to above the river Styx in the layer of Oinos on Gehenna. Several Fiends also 'port in trying to stop the Maledur's fall into the river. However, several Planescape sources including earlier in this book state that teleportation into Oinos doesn't work! My solution: the Maledur 'ports himself to a portal that takes him to the spot in Oinos right above the river, and the Fiends do likewise...
That was from the original Planescape boxed set.
The way I reconcile it is that the two edges of Sigil are bounded spaces - and therefore can work as massive portals. The destination of these portals and their keys continually shift, so depending on whether or not the character (or anyone else falling over the edge at the time) has something that that happens to act as a key, they might end up anywhere. If not, they end up falling forever toward the Outlands.
The Blood War Trilogy of Planescape novels is notorious for breaking the rules of the setting, which is why they often get bad press, despite others thinking they're pretty good as novels.
My PCs once designed a spell, Sigil Shift (Clr 6, Wiz/Sor 8 ) that basically plane shifts/teleports directly to Fell's tattoo parlor in a pre-faction-war game. Not sure if that's breaking any rules or not, but I have this stigma about easy access to Sigil. I don't allow a normal Plane Shift/Teleport like so many other DMs I know, and I don't just insert obvious portals into every backwater prime and back alley. To me, the value of a commodity like Sigil (or any other planar metropolis, eg Union, Brass, etc) is in it's rarity of occurrance. At least until higher levels.