Alternative take on the Grey Wastes

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Palomides's picture
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factotums
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Alternative take on the Grey Wastes

OK, I’m going WAY off the canonical path with this; but, I came up with a concept for the Grey Wastes, death, and yugoloths that I rather enjoyed so I wanted to share. I realize that this doesn’t coincide with standard material and I’m not trying to push it on anyone. But if you find an idea or two (or the kernel of an idea) that you like, please steal it. I bring this up just to generate new ideas.

The first thing that I had done was to modify the nature of the afterlife a little. Initially, it seemed inappropriate to me that the gods of death (Hades/Pluto, Hel, etc.) were ruling over a plane that was populated with only petitioners of Neutral Evil alignment. To me, it seems like they should have vast legions of souls instead of the 1/17(?) that they would get if everyone went to the plane of their alignment.
I found the solution I wanted in the Egyptian concept of multiple souls (I know many cultures have this). I stripped down the Egyptian system to a person having a soul and a “shadow soul”.
Under my new system when a person dies, his soul and shadow soul are split (probably after going through whatever afterlife judgment is appropriate for that person).
The soul represents the true essence of the person (i.e. his alignment, his devotion, etc.) This soul goes to the plane approriate to the dead person’s beliefs as a petitioner.

The shadow soul represents an attachment to the mortal realm. It immediately goes to the Grey Wastes to live the monotonous dreary life waiting to be commanded by a god of death (e.g. being ordered by Hel to attack the Norse gods on the day of Ragnarok)
This corrects what I saw as a flaw as the gods of death now command the shadow souls of every being that has ever lived! [In my mind, the gods of death are not particularly ambitious or else, they could probably launch some major wars of conquest - I guess there is an upside to the emotional apathy that permeates the plane]

As the shadow soul is the one with the links to the mortal realm (i.e. a shadow of the man he USED to be) and the soul/petitioner is the essense of his being (i.e. the man he IS/WILL BE); the soul/petioner has no memories of his prior life.
So if the PCs want to travel to the Outer Planes to contact a spirit to find out where he hid the MacGuffin before he died, the PCs will need to go to the Grey Wastes, sneak past the yugoloths, avoid the warfare on the upper layer, avoid succumbing to the life-draining effects and bypass the guardian beast (e.g. Cerberus) to reach the realm of the shadow souls so that they can ask the dreary spirit that actuallly does remember something of his past life.
Personally, I liked this as it finally provided a reason for the PCs to go to the Grey Wastes

Then I started thinking about the yugoloths. I couldn’t afford all the PS material so it is possible I missed this; but I never found a clear motivation or goal for the yugoloths. While I think it’s fine for the PCs to never understand the motivations of various groups and factions; as the DM, I like to know them so that I can create cohesive plots and goals for the villains.
In what I read, the yugoloths were cunning and definitely seemed to have some hidden objective for which they manipulated everyone else. But I was damned [no pun intended] if I could figure out what their endgame goal was. [If one of the great gurus on this site want to fill me in on the cannonical answer, I’d be glad to hear it]

I started to think about what the yugoloths could want. I had defined the Grey Wastes as being the plane of death more than the plane of Neutral Evil; so I asked, what would creatures native to the plane of death want? What would give them power?
The gods of death (in my new set-up) had a lock on the shadow souls, so what was there for the yugoloths to do except scavange and trade the larvae of the true petitioners of the plane?
Then it dawned on me, what if the yugoloths could feed on “spiritual” death? We know that typically when a petitioner or planar entity dies, he or she usually comes back in some related form (e.g. a killed devil returns at the bottom of the status ladder as larvae). That “demotion” seems like a loss of energy. Where does that energy go?
While the gods of death were preoccupied with the fates of mortal souls passing on, what if the yugoloths were preoccupied with the “deaths” of souls/petitioners?
What if the death of a soul/petitioner actually gave power to the yugoloths? And what if the power gained was especially strong if the soul/petitioner died while in the Grey Wastes? Then the yugoloths would actually have a motivation to encourage lethal, bloody warfare to be fought on the Grey Wastes.
But how could they accomplish that…hmmm??? Lethal, BLOODy WARfare
Sure they could encourage an attack against the Upper Planes, but then the yugoloths might find themselves the targets of attacks by celestials. Much too risky. Better if they could find two (or more) groups of patsies that they could play off of each other while they officially take the stance of being neutral.

So that’s it in a nutshell. Any opinions? Too far out there? Did I overlook some obvious contradictions? Did I miss out on some cool potential for further plots or ideas?

Jem
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Factor
Joined: 2006-05-10
Re: Alternative take on the Grey Wastes

I dig the idea of the shadow souls. You're right, quite noncanonical, but it makes sense to several religions. For example, Hercules in Greek myth had his divine half go to Olympus, while his mortal half spends eternity in the Elysian fields. Voodoun has the idea of the gros-bon-ange and the petit-bon-ange, which are the higher, afterlife-bound soul and the lower, memory-holding soul, just as you've described here. Giving the gods of death mastery of those hordes of weaker souls seems like a good reason for them to desire the portfolio.

Palomides wrote:
We know that typically when a petitioner or planar entity dies, he or she usually comes back in some related form (e.g. a killed devil returns at the bottom of the status ladder as larvae). That “demotion” seems like a loss of energy. Where does that energy go?

Unless this is a 4e thing I haven't seen, I've never heard of this happening. In 3e, a petitioner killed on their native plane merges with the plane, while a petitioner killed off-plane is utterly destroyed. (I prefer to think of a petitioner dying off-plane as being almost completely eradicated; being almost purely a different alignment, only the sliver of their soul that was still the alignment of the plane where they died gets absorbed; for instance, a Mechanus petitioner killed in Pandemonium would only have the fragment of chaos left in their soul, and a bit of their surviving evil, get absorbed.)

A devil, having been promoted, is a little luckier; while a devil killed on Baator is dead, just like any other petitioner -- its essence merges with the plane (presumably empowering it) -- a devil killed off-plane is banished to Baator and bound there for a century. It's often demoted by its superiors for its failure, but this is not an automatic result of its death. The process is similar for other fiends and celestials which were promoted from petitioners.

How might we rescue the general concept... perhaps the yugoloths have the ability to "skim off" some of the energy from any evil-aligned spells and powers used by the devils and demons while on the Waste, Gehenna, or Carceri, in places where the yugoloths have set up the appropriate energy traps?

Palomides's picture
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factotums
Joined: 2010-06-26
Re: Alternative take on the Grey Wastes

Apparently, it's been too long since I had a campaign as I seem to be getting everything wrong. I remember a "local" dying on their own plane having their essense merged with the plane; but I would have sworn that dying as a "visitor" elsewhere led to returning to the home plane and some level of automatic depowering (not just a result of your superior's wishes).
Oh well, since its non-official I supposed I could do it any way I want but let's see what we can do to make it somewhat close to the standard.

Personally, while I appreciate your effort, I don't like the solution of syphoning off slivers of evil spell powers. This seems like some white-collar crime by some cowardly accountant skimming funds and doesn't seem quite ruthless enough for the yugoloths, IMHO.

I do like the idea of the yugoloths setting traps though. I could see "neutral" yugoloths on both sides of the Blood War conferring so that they could subtly steer both sides into battling at the locations the loths wanted them to be. That seems manipulative and uncaring which fits their personalities.

ripvanwormer's picture
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Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Re: Alternative take on the Grey Wastes

The gods of death generally get all the souls allocated to them by their pantheon. So if the Babylonian pantheon wants Nergal and Ereshkigal to take care of all their dead, that can happen, regardless of those souls alignment or what plane that pantheon's underworld happens to be located. So all Faerunian petitioners end up in Kelemvor's realm in the Gray Waste to be judged, and those who are judged faithless or false have to stay there, regardless of their alignment.

In the case of the Greek pantheon, some lucky souls end up in the Elysian fields instead of Hades, and in the Norse pantheon some warriors end up in Valhalla instead of Helheim.

Slaadi who are killed end up reforming after 24 hours the next most powerful caste, remaining like that for a year and a day (Well of Worlds, page 123, as well as the 1st edition Fiend Folio).

According to the 1e Monster Manual II, devas who are killed on the Material Plane or the Elemental Planes reform instantly in their home planes, but must remain there for 10 years until they can reform their corporeal bodies. Planetars take 40 years. Solars are the same, but require 70 years to reform their corporeal forms.

If a gehreleth is destroyed, Apomps transforms a lesser gehreleth into a gehreleth of that rank. New farastu are created from corpses. The process is similar with Primus and modrons, without the corpse part.

Lesser yugoloths, if destroyed, are slain forever, although new mezzoloths are spawned to replace them. Greater yugoloths can only be permanently killed if slain in Carceri, the Gray Waste, or Gehenna. It takes them one year per hit die to reform. Arcanaloths can only be permanently slain on Gehenna.

Jem
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Factor
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Re: Alternative take on the Grey Wastes

Palomides wrote:
Personally, while I appreciate your effort, I don't like the solution of syphoning off slivers of evil spell powers. This seems like some white-collar crime by some cowardly accountant skimming funds and doesn't seem quite ruthless enough for the yugoloths, IMHO.

Fair 'nough. Oh! There is the fact that both sides regularly sweep Gehenna, the Waste, and Carceri for local souls to force into their armies. That could easily lead to a number of petitioners being killed off-plane. (I can't recall whether "raw", unpromoted, petitioners from Baator and the Abyss ever get impressed into the armies. Given the use that Baator and the Abyss can make of the raw materials at home, I don't think they do.)

What if the 'loths had a way to capture the energies from a Gehennan petitioner killed on the Waste or Carceri, or a Waste petitioner killed on Gehenna or Carceri? (Carceri petitioners can't leave Carceri.) Perhaps other petitioners as well, though limiting it to evil petitioners would seem most thematic.

Wicke's picture
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factotums
Joined: 2009-04-24
Re: Alternative take on the Grey Wastes

What of the hags that inhabit the Grey Wastes?

Palomides's picture
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factotums
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Re: Alternative take on the Grey Wastes

Personally, I viewed them as lesser agents and let them focus primarily on harvesting and trading in the soul larvae through the Lower Planes. But I'd be open to suggestions for a different take on them

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