Alternate Inner Planes Cosmology

16 posts / 0 new
Last post
eldersphinx's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-12-06
Alternate Inner Planes Cosmology

Or, How to set up Elemental Demiplanes that are Simpler than 2E but More Varied than 3E. Cool

So I've been thinking, recently, on the nature of the elemental paraplanes and quasiplanes. IMHO, they were a fairly varied lot - some were fun and unique places to visit (such as Ice and Mineral), some were kinda redundant when set against each other (Ash and Dust come to mind here), some seemed difficult to justify in any real sense on the planes (Vacuum, for instance - you'd have to be an absolute sadist of a DM to seriously send PCs there). So when 3E rolled around, the Inner Planes got 'simplified' by a wholesale ditching of the lot.

Which is a pity. Yes, you can have independent 'pocket' planes hanging around out there, with ice elementals and dust mephits and tsnng, but these don't have any established link to the existing Elemental planes and you can't have the 'border wars' that were such an established part of the 2E planes. OTOH, going back to the 2E system doesn't work well for me either - aside from the uneven flavor of the 2E planes, you have to explain why the paraplanes and quasiplanes don't spawn their own child parasemiquasiquaverelemental planes of Melange, or what have you.

Thus, a third option. Which is, IMHO, both a good balance and uniquely Planescapian.

In this system, the six 'primal' Elemental planes are the building blocks of all matter. They can be thought of as arranged over the surface of a giant sphere or die, planes on opposite 'poles' opposed to each other. Where two planes meet, you have a border; things get uncomfortably exciting here. And in a few rare places, you have a point, where three planes happen to meet. You can draw a ring around each of these points - how big is up to you, we're dealing with infinite planes after all. In these places, you get more than mere excitement. You get something... new.

Under this cosmology, you'd have eight elemental Demiplanes - each one combining two elements and either the Positive or Negative plane. (For a physical model, take a six-sided die and snip off the corners; the 'triangles' that result are elemental demiplanes, the main faces are primal planes.) Eight demiplanes is a manageable number; we can keep some of the more interesting paraplanes and quasiplanes, combine a few of the quasiplanes that were very similar to one another, and possibly add a new plane or two in the process. Here's some basics on how things might turn out:

- Fire, Earth, and Positive - Demiplane of Magma. This is the stronghold of the Azer; some of their kind have even been known to claim the demiplane as a Genesis creation of some wizard-hero of their people. Regardless of whether the plane is a natural or created place, the dwarf kindred are the dominant civilization here, using molten and near-molten rock as a tool for building and forging weapons and armor. It's still a frontier, however, home to thoqqua and many other beasts.
- Fire, Air, and Positive - Demiplane of Brilliance. This demiplane is a mysterious wilderness (combining all the dangerous exuberance of the old Radiance and Lightning quasiplanes) that few have explored. Creatures here include lightning elementals, scile, shockers, darklights, and the strange, giant ribbonlike creatures known as flickers.
- Water, Earth and Positive - Demiplane of Wood. This would be a new demiplane, filled with plant life of all kinds from great to small. Some cultures venerate it as a 'true' elemental plane, but sages in the Rational tradition call it a demiplane, drawing on water, soil and lifeforce to survive even as Material plane plants do.
- Water, Air and Positive - Demiplane of Tempests This is a plane whose exact identity and 'hook' I'm unsure about - my current placeholder is for a place of wild typhoons, waterspouts and tidal bores. Creatures and material would likely be new work. Anyone who has an interesting idea that would fit into this 'niche' of the cosmology, feel free to suggest it.
- Earth, Fire and Negative - Demiplane of Dust. This combines the old Dust and Ash quasiplanes, in equal measure, and has elements of both in place. Dust mephits are the main 'civilizing' force (though that's not saying much) and other creatures of dust and ash serve as predator species, including the rast.
- Earth, Water and Negative - Demiplane of Crystal. One might be surprised to see such a beautiful and brilliant concept as crystal linked to the negative plane - until one realizes that crystals trap light, breaking it apart, and in other forms trap and retard earth and water as well. This is the old quasiplane of Mineral (though with a darker and mre ambiguous slant) as well as the quasiplane of Salt (which is just as dangerous as it's always been). The would-be archomental Crystalle and his servants work to make the demiplane more benign, while the tsnng and facets seek to broaden its power at the expense of Earth and Water.
- Air, Water and Negative - Demiplane of Ice. Very similar to the 2e paraplane, with Cryonax, frost salamanders and all. More details might also be put into place for this location, as possible.
- Air, Fire and Negative - Demiplane of Smoke. Again, the 2e paraplane is the major source of information here; ideas and places from the old quasiplane of Steam might also find their way here. Aside from the Demiplane of Tempests, though, this is probably the one place with the greatest need for new work.

That's about the whole of things, then. Any questions, comments on how it might work, or ideas on how to change things or add detail?

LegatoX's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2005-01-30
Alternate Inner Planes Cosmology

The Elemental Plane of Wood is one of the stupidest things I read in the new Manual of the Planes. I despise it so much. And in your set up, it doesn't even really make a whole lot of sense. The combination of water and earth doesn't make plants (plants in earth use water), even with the combination of the life energy of the positive plane I really dont' think it works very well. I'd rather see it just as a random demi-plane floating in the ethereal if you woudl have it at all.

I really was a fan of the Planescape method myself. It seems to make alot of sense in most of the cases (there are a few weird ones that could be changed, either ash or dust needs to be dropped and replaced since they both have almost the same flavor). You can see how alot of these would be logical transitions from one of the main four elemental planes or the two energy planes to another.

I happen to really like the plane of Vacuum myself. There's something just so cool about it. It's like the ultimate example of the Doomguard philosophy, their goal. It's like exploring outer space (without the cold). It's a nice plane to oppose Radiance.

Quote:
you have to explain why the paraplanes and quasiplanes don't spawn their own child parasemiquasiquaverelemental planes of Melange, or what have you.
I dont' really understand this reference. Can you explain it a bit more?

On to your Idea though . . .

Why would there only be new planes where two planes meet an energy plane? The thing I liked about the Paraelemental planes is that they were like natural transitions from one Big Elemental plane to another. In your set up, how is the transition from fire to earth different from the plane of magma?

I do like the possibilities for the Crystal Plane idea.

bonemage's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-05-11
Alternate Inner Planes Cosmology

Maybe they just wanted to make sure the Chinese's fifth element which is wood was included somehow even though they were using the European style element setup?

Kaelyn's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-05-10
Alternate Inner Planes Cosmology

Yeah, the Elemental Plane of Wood isn't stupid if you're Taoist and happen to believe in elemental planes for some reason. I see it as part of an alternate, Oriental way of looking at the Inner Planes, completely different from the Occidental perspective but no less valid.

Ash and Dust aren't the same thing at all. One is deadly cold, sapping things of their heat energy until they freeze or die, while the other makes everything that comes within it crumble and dissolve.

They don't look the same: Ash is solid, like the Plane of Earth; you have to dig your way through it. Dust is scattered; you can fall through it like the Plane of Air, or swim through it like Water. Ash is a uniform gray-white-black, while Dust is all the colors of the minerals that make up its powdery substance.

And they don't have the same origin. Ash is the death of warmth and energy; Dust is the disintegration of form and substance. They're very different, very distinctive entropic manifestations.

I wouldn't want to give up either one.

mimir.net/dust
mimir.net/ash

I like Vacuum too; obviously it's not right for a long-term campaign, but it's a very dramatic setting for the occasional excursion.

I like the new planes Eldersphinx presents, too, at least as border regions, but they don't have the archetypal, elemental feeling the four classic negative quasielemental planes have:

The death of solidity.
The death of energy.
The death of fluidity.
The death of substance.

Four flavors of entropy, corresponding with the four Aristotlean elements. There's a great beauty to that that would be a shame to lose.

On the other hand, the positive quasielemental planes lack this flavor, and could stand to be revised.

LegatoX's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2005-01-30
Alternate Inner Planes Cosmology

It's just that "Wood" seems to be far less "elemental" than the classic Earth, Wind, Fire, and Water (and Heart! GO PLANET!). I didn't know it was an eastern philosophy thing, but it still just doesn't seem to fit in very well.

I'm well aware of the Ash and Dust differences. I happen to like the ideas behind them. In a really broad view though, they seem very similar. I shouldn't have said "needs to dropped", shoudl have said "could be dropped if a suitable replacement was found".

Your explanation of the "Deaths of Things in regards to Entropy" does explain the need for them well though. It also points out that the positive planes don't really do the reverse as well.

Kaelyn's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-05-10
Alternate Inner Planes Cosmology

"LegatoX" wrote:
It's just that "Wood" seems to be far less "elemental" than the classic Earth, Wind, Fire, and Water (and Heart! GO PLANET!). I didn't know it was an eastern philosophy thing, but it still just doesn't seem to fit in very well.

You can read more about the Five Elements in various places. Here's one such link: http://www.168fengshui.com/Articles/5elements.htm

Another good page explaining various Western and Eastern elemental systems is http://www.friesian.com/elements.htm - this page includes the Buddhist elements, which include Void (corresponding to Vacuum).

Kaelyn's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-05-10
Alternate Inner Planes Cosmology

It could be that occidental sages classify Wood as a demiplane and Air as a full plane, while for the oriental scholars the reverse is true.

The precise cycle of elements in the Chinese cycle of "stems" is: Yang Wood, Yin Wood, Yang Fire, Yin Fire, Yang Earth, Yin Earth, Yang Metal, Yin Metal, Yang Water and Yin Water. That would nicely account for the positive and negative planes.

According to the Chinese, Wood gives birth to Fire, which gives birth to Earth, which gives birth to Metal, which gives birth to Water, which gives birth to Wood again. Earth controls Water, which controls Fire, which controls Metal, which controls Wood, which controls Earth.

The elements of the I Ching, on the other hand, are Heaven, Earth, Wind, Thunder, Water, Fire, Mountain, and Mist. An oriental scholar who accepted both the I Ching scheme and the standard five elements as planes would account for a good chunk of the AD&D/Planescape cosmology. Then, with the Buddhist element of Void, you have even more.

eldersphinx's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-12-06
Alternate Inner Planes Cosmology

Hmmm. Wood is generally disliked, and there's at least some interest in keeping the current Negative Planes as established. Now I know why nobody ever tried a popular overhaul earlier. Eye-wink

LegatoX - The structural goal of my redesign was to try to explain cleanly what happens when elemental planes meet. Under the 2e system, it seems like every border between two elements creates a paraplane or quasiplane. This is odd and dissatisfying to me. One should be able to go from Earth to Fire without having to cross through Magma, and the border between Ice and Steam (which exists, if one ponders the geography in place) creates... what?

Thus the decision that three 'primal' planes are needed to create a demiplane. Between two primal planes, you simply have a border - a place of conflict, but not fundamentally different yet. There might be something new from combining four or five primal planes, but the geography prevents that over the long term. (and six, arguably, causes the Prime...)

BTW, what would you prefer as a plane which combines earth, water, and positive energy in equal measure, to produce something archetypically new?

Kaelyn - I get where you're coming from on the differences between Ash and Dust; I'm just not sure why the two are so different that you couldn't combine them into a single place. (An elemental plane is a big place, after all.) I also see Negative energy not simply as an entropic force, but as a corrupter, an attempt to counter and deny life and growth, and willing to create a limited form of preservation and stasis in order to accomplish this goal. We may have to agree to disagree on that one. Cool

That said, it might also be possible to use some of the ideas I've got to boost flavor to the positive quasiplanes as well. I'll try to put those thoughts into a separate post.

Kaelyn's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-05-10
Alternate Inner Planes Cosmology

"eldersphinx" wrote:
One should be able to go from Earth to Fire without having to cross through Magma

One can. According to Secrets of the Lamp, there's a fiery fountain of molten metal at the outskirts of the Sevenfold Mazework; this is a two-directional vortex between the elemental planes of Earth and Fire. Known as the Iron Crucible, efreet commonly use it when trading with the dao; the yikaria have lately been demanding exorbitant tariffs, however, so trade has dropped off.

Doubtless there are other such vortices.

Quote:
and the border between Ice and Steam (which exists, if one ponders the geography in place) creates... what?

According to The Inner Planes, this border region is called the Fog of Unyielding Frost (it's called Hoarfrost on the Steam side). The border between Ice and Lightning is called the Shimmering Drifts (or Glistening Crystal, on the Lightning side of the border).

All of these lesser borders are described in The Inner Planes sourcebook.

Quote:
BTW, what would you prefer as a plane which combines earth, water, and positive energy in equal measure, to produce something archetypically new?

Officially, the border between Ooze and Mineral is called the Slag Marshes (Sparklemire on the Mineral side), while the border between Ooze and Steam is called the Choking Gale (or the Realm of Cloying Fear).

According to the Mimir's Quasi-elemental Exotica article, the border between Ooze and Positive Energy is Clay.

For my personal preference, I think a region of Flesh would be interesting. Of course, that's almost what Clay is: it's wet earth suffused with enough positive energy to almost become flesh; it's what the gods made the first mortals with, supposedly.

Quote:
I'm just not sure why the two are so different that you couldn't combine them into a single place.

You could combine a lot of different planes into a single place (for example, Fire and Magma, or Ice and Water), but the two are different enough that they're interesting as two different places. I can't see a group of PCs exploring a series of claustrophic ash-choked tunnels that bleed the heat from everything and later that day exploring a dusty sea filled with howling, biting winds where everything and everybody slowly falls apart thinking "weren't we just here?"

The border between Ash and Dust is called the Wasting Place, according to The Inner Planes; there the effects of both planes are combined in a choking cloud.

Quote:
I also see Negative energy not simply as an entropic force, but as a corrupter, an attempt to counter and deny life and growth, and willing to create a limited form of preservation and stasis in order to accomplish this goal. We may have to agree to disagree on that one.

I see it as both. It's the elemental source of a completely natural part of nature on the one hand; it's also used by various malign entities as a corrupting power.

The Doomguard and the Dustmen certainly see the negative inner planes as a natural, morally neutral region, as do the negative quasi-elementals and the xeg-yi.

I don't see the negative energy plane as ever willing to create or preserve things naturally; when it does, it's because it's been interfered with by necromantic magic.

Quote:
That said, it might also be possible to use some of the ideas I've got to boost flavor to the positive quasiplanes as well. I'll try to put those thoughts into a separate post.

Oh, no doubt. Your ideas are interesting; I just don't want to throw the precious, life-giving bathwater out with the useless babies floating in it.

Kaelyn's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-05-10
Alternate Inner Planes Cosmology

Besides Quasi-Elemental Exotica, you might also want to look at Malakai's Pseudo-Elemental Planes. Also check out this thread where we discuss Malakai's cosmology and Pathguy's.

Kaelyn's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-05-10
Alternate Inner Planes Cosmology

Here's a crude map of the official and unofficial border regions, based on one Jon Winter made for the Mimir.

eldersphinx's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-12-06
Alternate Inner Planes Cosmology

... look, I'm trying to reduce the amount of semi-elemental clutter in my games, okay? The Greek philosophy concept of pure elemental matter was closely related to Platonic Forms, after all, and suggesting that you can mix two of anything, even admixtures, and get some further new elemental form is just weird. Take that to its logical conclusion, and every possible substance ends up with at least a handscrap of actual territory somewhere. Eye-wink

That said, it looks like we're probably going to disagree on the principles for how the Elemental Planes lay out, so I'd prefer to set aside the argument and focus on something constructive. Following are my thoughts on how to add a charge of unified flavor into the positive quasiplanes:

The Positive Quasielemental Planes

The positive quasiplanes are a varied lot. Where the negative quasiplanes all seem to hold to the same theme of taking some primal element and seeking to twist or destroy it, the positive planes aren't so obvious at first glance.

But look a bit longer, say some graybeards, and a pattern does seem to emerge. Where the negative quasiplanes all push entropy and death in some form or another, the positive quasiplanes all have some element of growth - change, idealization, transformation. The matter of the primal planes is being taken, reshaped into some more pleasing form, being added to for a purpose rather than simply allowed to exist in stasis.

Now, one might not agree with the course this change is taking, the graybeards say, but that's not to suggest it's not happening. The Positive - or whatever force is driving such a transformation - has its own goals, after all, which may not match with what mere mortals or even gods see as the preferred fate of the Inner Planes. And if the Positive is seeking change... it may choose to change itself, someday. And pursue a different progress of transformation.

Something to think about, in any case.

QUASIPLANE OF MINERAL - This positive quasiplane idealizes earth and stone, purifying and organizing it. From some disordered melange of pebbles, rock and sediment come perfect gemstones and crystal, showing perfect order in their shapes and demonstrably harder and more durable than any other type of earth. And if it's less useful to most kinds of Prime life... well, them's the breaks, berk.

QUASIPLANE OF LIGHTNING - If Mineral is the exemplar of order and purification, then this place is the essence of continual change. Titanic energies clash constantly here, and the place is home to not only lightning storms but also wind flurries and hurricanes that sweep endlessly through the infinite expanse. Those who dare come here see eternal conflict. turmoil, and rebirth in the depths of the maelstrom.

QUASIPLANE OF RADIANCE - The quasiplane of Radiance shapes the essence of fire into purest light... and in the process, also sparks innovation and imagination in any who visit. (For this reason, some wags have taken to calling it the quasiplane of Brilliance - no accounting for taste.) New thoughts are quickened here, ideas are born and preconceptions are re-examined - as such, it's something of a favored place for those wizards and cutters seeking to expand on research or create some work of art. Knowledge isn't always a safe thing to have, though, and more than a few who've thought to come here for illumination have had their very brains burnt out by Brilliance, or not returned at all.

QUASIPLANE OF STEAM - Again, this place is almost the opposite of Radiance- shrouding instead of enlightening, promoting privacy, concealment and secrecy. Sight, sound and other senses are all dulled here, within a strange place that no one is quite sure of the dark of. Some think it's odd that a force such as the Positive would seek to retard such things as perception and discernment - but there's perhaps more life here than on any of the other quasiplanes, coexisting simply because it's so piking difficult to even see one another and come to blows... so maybe the Quasiplane of Steam has a proper purpose, after all.

Kaelyn's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-05-10
Alternate Inner Planes Cosmology

"eldersphinx" wrote:
suggesting that you can mix two of anything, even admixtures, and get some further new elemental form is just weird.

Where do you think impure substances come from? Alchemists believed there were only four kinds of atoms. Gold was a balanced compound of all four elements, as was the human body. Every other substance is some imbalanced combination of the four.

Logically, if the elemental planes have border regions, every compound in existence should have a place there somewhere. Naturally, PCs won't visit them all or have to memorize them, but if your problem with the cosmology is that some of the planes are boring or too much alike, adding distinctive border regions is one solution to that.

Your summaries of the positive planes are good, though.

Sakara's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-05-15
Alternate Inner Planes Cosmology

Quote:
some were kinda redundant when set against each other (Ash and Dust come to mind here)

Returning to the above comment: I too have thought that dust/ash were somewhat redundant. Perhaps, since when fire meets positive you get Radiance, it would be reasonable to expect that when fire meets negative you would get Shadow?

Krypter's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-05-11
Alternate Inner Planes Cosmology

"eldersphinx" wrote:
QUASIPLANE OF RADIANCE - The quasiplane of Radiance shapes the essence of fire into purest light... and in the process, also sparks innovation and imagination in any who visit. (For this reason, some wags have taken to calling it the quasiplane of Brilliance - no accounting for taste.) New thoughts are quickened here, ideas are born and preconceptions are re-examined...

I like the way you've added "intangible traits" to these Elemental Planes. Do you have game rules for them (like +2 to alchemical research on the plane of brilliance or -2 to scrying magic on steam)? It adds a dash of metaphysical mystery to each of these places apart from mere environmental conditions, and gives players another reason to journey there.

Anarch's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-05-19
Alternate Inner Planes Cosmology

Just to add to the baroque confusion of the Quasi-Paraelemental planes, I threw in a few other lesser elemental planes (no good catchphrase for them, I'm afraid). These were formed by the fractal-like contusions of the regular elemental planes as various exemplary essences mixed and comingled through rifts and vortices. In this category were the planes of Acid, Metal, Flesh, Wood, Sound and a few others I forget.

Which goes even further away from eldersphinx's ideal but hey, that's Planescape for ya. Or at least, for me Eye-wink

Planescape, Dungeons & Dragons, their logos, Wizards of the Coast, and the Wizards of the Coast logo are ©2008, Wizards of the Coast, a subsidiary of Hasbro Inc. and used with permission.