Alignment On Ortho

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Duckluck's picture
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Factor
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Alignment On Ortho

OK, some of this will sound almost unthinkable to Planescape purists, but bear with me. From the beginning, we've been operating under the assumtion that alignments on Ortho worked the same way they do in Planescape and 3.5 D&D in general, but we don't need to. Ortho is its own setting, and it should be allowed to play by its own rules. We're a Planescape board, so we aren't going to stray too far from PS canon, but there are a few rule schemes in D&D that every new setting should be allowed to twist to their desires. Alignment is one of them. That said, here are some possibilities for different ways alignment could work on Ortho. All we have to do is pick a System and an Effect.

Systems:

System 1: Standard.

Alignments work exactly the way they are described in the Player's Handbook.
Pros: It's a familiar system, and it would require virtually no changes in what we have so far.
Cons: The 3.5 alignment system is needlessly complex and many of the terms are poory defined or downright nonsensical. Especially Law and Chaos. Doesn't really fit Ortho's agressive anti-law world-view.
Possible Effects: The same effects it always has. People pick the alignment they think they want (or think will let them get away with the most) and get into arguments with players who think it means something else. It also restricts the kinds of characters people play to an unnecessary degree.

System 2: Simplified.
The Player's Handbook system only simpler. Lawful means "devoted to the Law," Neutral means "ambivalent to the Law," and Chaotic means "defiant of the law." Good and Evil are defined by putting others above yourself and putting yourself above others, respectively (or whatever pithy definition we come up with).
Pros: It's a simple system, it fits Ortho's black and white world world view, and it's far more straight forward than the standard system.
Cons: It doesn't quite match with the Planescape conception of alignment, people might be thrown by the differing definitions, may require slight revisions to what we have.
Possible Effects: A clear, simple system with only two measures would dramatically reduce arguments over the "correct" way to play a given alignment and would also probably help encourage players to try less cliched takes on the alignments.

System 3: Ambiguous.
Orthorians have a concept of morals and ethics, that has been outlined in the Way of Harmony and elsewhere, but the boundaries between the diffent alignments are often vague or unclear. Sin Hunters and other moral police distribute "justice" based more on prejudice and whim than anything else.
Pros: It makes for interesting interactions and encourages players to try characters they wouldn't ordinarily use, and keeps characters from being defined by their alignments. It also gives everything a nice pulpy air of moral ambiguity.
Cons: It's tricky to impliment, doesn't work well with Planescape, and would require some considerable revision.
Possible Effects: The shades of gray morality could be a fun way to liven up Ortho, but it could also fall flat and cause the setting to lose a lot of what makes it interesting. Players could very well find themselves missing the old alignment system.

System 4: Something New.
Instead of the traditional nine alignments, we'd have a new system created specifically for Ortho. Perhaps they use Harmonious/Neutral/Discordant as a single alignment system. Perhaps they don't have Neutrality and only use the four "corner" alignments. Maybe Lawful and Good are the same thing on Ortho. Whatever this system would be it will have many of the same benefits and drawbacks.
Pros: It's something new for players and DMs to play around with. A good system could breath life into the setting.
Cons: It would involve ripping canon a new one, would take a while for players to learn, and would require revising everything we've done so far.
Possible Effects: It depends on the system, a good one could define the setting and turn it into something great, a really bad one could cause an unbelieveable headache.

Effects:

Effect A: Normal
Alignments work exactly the way they are described in the Player's Handbook, barring specific exceptions (like letting Bards and Barbarians be Lawful). Spells like Detect Chaos work normally
Pros: It's the way alignments have always worked, and it works pretty well.
Cons: Doesn't work as well with more ambiguous alignment standards. Alignment detection totally screws over chaotic PCs.
Possible Effects: It makes alignment really obvious which leaves players wondering how chaotic individuals escape detection at all.

Effect B: Hidden Alignments.
Hidden Alignments work like normal alignments except that spells like Detect Chaos are either don't work at all or are limited in some way. For example, the spells could base their results on the biases of the caster meaning that a Sin Hunter that sees Chaos as Evil would see an Eladrin as strongly evil.
Pros: Detect Alignment spells wouldn't work properly meaning that Chaotic characters could easilly slip by undetected while still retaining their chaoticness. An intriguing air of uncertainty would develop over people's true alignments.
Cons: This would involve some rewriting, could potentially conflict with Planescape, and may not go over very well with all players.
Possible Effects: It would free us to have more whodunits and moral ambiguity among characters and would have a major impact (for good or ill) on the way characters in the setting interacted.

Effect C: Intangible Alignments
The alignments exist as in-character concepts, but they have no real effect on gameplay. Spells and abilities that have to do with alignment don't work or work differently, and you can be any class you want (even ones that normaly require contradictary alignments), provided the DM doesn't object.
Pros: It has nifty ambiguity and could open up whole new realms of characterization. A certain kind of player goes nuts for this kind of thing.
Cons: No rules, no systems, anarchy! A certain type of player goes nuts from this kind of thing. Also, it would mean doing some serious rewriting.

This isn't an all-encompassing list, but I think it just about covers the options that are worth considering. I'm leaning towards a couple, but I think I'll wait to see how other people respond before sharing my thoughts. Please take the oportunity to weigh in and let me know what you think.

Oberoni_Fallacy's picture
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Alignment On Ortho

Anything that changes the actual game mechanics of D+D I'm not one for, especially since Planescape is so dependent on them. While Ortho is a prime in it's own right, it's part of a larger meta-setting, and that meta-setting happens to have Holy Word (and Holy Avengers) in it.

On the other hand, Law and Chaos are really wonky, and Ortho gives us an opportunity to fix that that makes sense within the prime setting. Since it's got one major government and that government is, ideally, in tune with the Planar concept of 'Law', simplified is just a great idea.

Lawful means 'you actively follow, obey, and aid the law', Neutral means 'you are aware of and respect the law', and Chaotic means "Oh, hey, there's laws here? Ah, oh well. Guess that means I 'found' this wallet."

As for Good and Evil, I actually wouldn't mind a more Gygaxian take on it. Most people are good, Angels are Good, slightly less moral people are neutral, mean people are evil, and you have the occasional nutty Druid who's Neutral and switches sides to screw over the players.

As a matter of fact, I think it would be highly interesting for the setting if the standard "Detects" were actually *more* common than they are in a standard game. If to enter a city, you had to undergo a, say, "Detect Law", this would actually foster characters who were Neutral, but this meant something other than people who "Obey the law, except when there's a really good reward not to."

Armoury99's picture
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Alignment On Ortho

I think that most people will use the standard Alignment system of D&D, then modify it to their own tastes, so its probably a best if we stick to the 'core rules' version (much as Harmonious/Discordant sounds fun). There's certainly a lot of room for clarification, examples, and better definitions though.

Regarding the various Detect spells, they're an integral part of D&D so we should keep them. I don't see them being too much of a problem however, as - much as certain Hardline Hardheads might disagree - its not actually a crime to be of chaotic alignment (or evil for that matter). Being chaotic doesn't necessarily mean you're a lawbreaker or opponent of the Harmonium, just that your personal philosphy is about choice, freedom, the individual (although maybe you're a bit on the wild side...) There might well be social stigma attached to being a "known chaotic" but unless you're in one of their oppressive regimes the Harmonium won't lock you up for it.

The PCs can't point at a villain and yell "he's evil!" as an excuse for attacking him, he'll just have them arrested. There's also plenty of scope for opponents who don't have the big E in their alignment; I think on many occasions the PCs will be fighting "the system" or people who are ignorant/uncaring rather than malevolent. Even most real villains should have a reason other than "because I'm evil."

I'd like to see multiple examples of what each alignment can mean on Ortho, both for and against the Harmonium. What's it mean to be a LG opponent of the system etc.

Clueless's picture
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Alignment On Ortho

Armoury99: "Ortho's agressive anti-law world-view" ? I'm not following what you mean here.

Hm... I'm just now getting caught up on these threads so give me a few to think this one over - it is a worthwhile modification. (And the suggestions about hidden alignments or caster bias causing misreadings should definately go into the Ina's Secrets section at the very least, as ways to change the game).

I've always views lawful/chaotic as being deeper than just your own personal respect for the laws where ever you are. They're also a reflection of your orderliness, your planning style, your tendency to improvise through life or whatnot.

It is definately not a crime to be chaotic or evil in the OCA. Even such individuals with their personal flaws have their uses and enjoy the protection of the law. They would have to act upon their baser instincts in order to become criminals.

As Armoury mentioned, most of our plots are going to have more subtle villains and situations than simple "Because I'm evil" and I would be delighted to see a set of PC's slammed with charges of slander for open confrontations.

We may want to explore the concept of legal privacy and legal testimony in our sections that address this question... After all when a cleric does a detect evil, only the cleric sees it. That really doesn't make for a good witness usually, but there may be exceptions - perhaps the detect alignment spells are a restricted classification of spell? The concept of lying and witness bias is going to be well known in a government than contains beholders, orcs, and the Iriondians.

re: Misplaying Alignments: There's nothing we can do - short of brain implants - to fix bad players and bad DMs via any form of mechanics. If the player or DM is bad at handling alignments - they're just gonna keep being bad until they learn better.

What we can do is introduce ways of playing and encouraging players to make that jump into looking at their PCs as 'people'. What factions did for Planescape was really nice - they broke the the idea of a characters morality away from his alignment allowing deeper thought about the character itself as a person to take control over the actions instead of being restricted to some alignment. Ideally that is the way to go about designing a character - you design them *as* a character, a person.

That's what I would like to aim for in our system, and formal alignment should be just a small component of it. Heck, White Wolf had something right when they pulled in natures and demeanors - perhaps we should follow that design path instead of modifying the alignment and trying to reteach the game? It is in essence the same 'function' that factions provided.

Personally I would suggest dumping alignment entirely as something defined by players. Let the GM him/herself decide what an alignment is for the PC and when it switches. But then that's because I have a good GM and group for that. So that may not be viable.

It may be better to address the issue of alignment on Ortho in the DM section than try to 'fix' it with a mechanical ruling. Pulling that depth out of character design is something you have to convince players and DMs to want to do.

Duckluck's picture
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Factor
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Alignment On Ortho

I personally can't stand the "Chaotic people are creative, impulsive, and self-disciplined, but Lawful people are uncreative, thoughtful, and (also) self-disciplined." line of alignment thinking because it restricts characterization for no real purpose. There's no reason why Lawful people would have to be rigid and uncreative in their thinking. If anything you could make an argument for them being more creative. Chaotic people can do whatever they want, so they don't have to think outside the box, whereas Lawful people have to be inventive if they want to achieve their goals without breaking laws or traditions. I personally favor a simple, single variable approach to Law/Chaos, but whether or not we should make a it canon is another question.

Armoury99's picture
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Alignment On Ortho

Quote:
Armoury99: "Ortho's agressive anti-law world-view" ? I'm not following what you mean here.

That wasn't me, it was Duckluck. You'll have to ask him.

I agree about leaving the basics of alignment alone, becuause just about every DM out there runs alignment differently anyway. I'm wary of making an alteration to the basic properties of the Detect spells for similar reasons. We're creating a setting that specifically links to a greater universe (spelljammer/Planescape) and any changes simply wouldn't be true elsewhere unless the individual DM was making a campaign-based decision to use (say) subjective alignment anyway. I know that "belief is power" but that's really a specifically Planescape theme, not a Prime Material one. I'd rather see a solution that keeps the standard rules, but with additions for Ortho. Failing that, I'd like a clear 'in-character' reason why they work differently.

The Harmonium's mages and clerics are as clever as any other - if anything they're more well travelled, with their planar and prime colonies - and would soon work out that things work differently on their world than elsewhere (the off-world colonies being a prime example).

Since various Detect spells can give you information on something as personal to your soul as Law/Chaos and Good/Evil, maybe we simply need the far superior (from Ortho's point of view) Detect Harmony or 'Detect Commitment to the Cause' spell instead? It seems more sensible to me that the Harmonium would want to know how committed you are to the cause rather than your specific alignment. I could after all be (to part-paraphrase Duckluck) a creative, impulsive, brawling, and ill-disciplined legionary who believes firmly in the Pax Harmony... (I could also be any of the Lawful alignments and opposed to it too).

I admit that this would probably be opening a can of worms however.

Perhaps the best option would be to present several options to a DM for their personal choice of campaign?

Duckluck's picture
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Factor
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Alignment On Ortho

Quote:
agressive anti-law woldview

Sorry, that was just a typo. I meant anti-chaos.

Anyway, if we used vaguer Detect spells (and I think that would be a good idea) the perfect in-character explanation would be to blame it on the Lords of Chaos. After all, just being chaotic isn't a crime, but being a cleric of chaos is, and the Lords of Chaos are especially interested in protecting their few remaining faithful.

If we don't want to make it an inherent part of the setting, we could just add it as a Feat ("Inscrutable" maybe) or even make it part of a chain of Feats (the other ones would naturally protect you from different Detect spells).

Clueless's picture
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Alignment On Ortho

A feat would definately be something to add - and actually aren't there already spells to conceal your alignment, are those cleric only spells?

Duckluck's picture
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Factor
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Alignment On Ortho

Yeah, Clerics get Undetectable Alignment . Wizards get Misdirection, Nondetection, and (eventually) Mind Blank.

There are two problems though. Firstly, with the exception of Undectable Alignment, none of those spells last long enough for you just have a permanent shield, and secondly, only spellcasters have access to them. What about all the chaotic people who can't cast spells and are too poor to afford a Ring of Mind Shielding? Hmm, let me try my hand at a rough draft of the feat tree.

Inscrutable [General]

Prerequisite: Iron Will
Benefit: Your alignment aura is concealed from all forms of divination as with an Undetectable Alignment spell. You also gain a +4 bonus to Bluff checks made to conceal or misrepresent your alignment.

Unknowable [General]
Prerequisites: Inscrutable.
Benefit: You are immune to Detect Thoughts and similar effects as if you were protected by a Ring of Mind Shielding. You also gain a +4 bonus to Bluff checks made to conceal or misrepresent knowledge

Clueless's picture
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Webmonkey
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Alignment On Ortho

Hm. There are only two things I would ask:

1) Why the Iron Will requirement? I don't quite see the connection conceptually - but more importantly, I don't feel like preventing 1st level characters from having the feat. It's specialized enough that I don't see any benefit from making it a deep feat tree, especially considering the relative scarcity of feats.

2) Do we want to add an option to have Bluff considered a class feature with picking up the feat?

Armoury99's picture
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Alignment On Ortho

I actually like the Iron Will requirement. Obviously it depends on how often a typical character would be axposed to the spell, but without a preqrequisite surely every villain and disreputable rogue is going to want these feats? I suppose on reflection, that applies to the spells too, but Iron Will makes it a nice progression of mental disciplines.

And I like the idea of rogues going to see the criminal version of Master Po... being taught the art of concealing your thoughts from the lobster boys.

Duckluck's picture
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Alignment On Ortho

The Iron Will requirement was mostly there so that a Human wouldn't be able to take both feats at first level. Although I'm not really sure that's a problem. Originally, I was considering a third feat in the tree that made you undetectable like Nondetection (which is would be quite useful) and didn't want players getting it too early. Either way, we can probably drop the Iron Will.

Clueless's picture
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Alignment On Ortho

If the idea is to not be able to take the second feat at the first level then we can simply add a prerequisite character level to it and call it a day. Eye-wink And I agree - there should be some spacing between those two. About what level were you thinking of ok'ing the second feat - 6th or so?

The biggest reason I see to drop the Iron Will - to be perfectly honest - is that there's a massive amount of feat glut going on in the 3.0/3.5 system already. Players already have trouble wriggling so much as a single extra feat out of their builds as it is (those what are concerned with such things, and in 3.5 you sorta need to be if you want to take any prestige class). I'd like to have a chance of seeing players actually use this feat tree. Eye-wink

Duckluck's picture
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Alignment On Ortho

Yeah, I actually agree. The only reason I was willing to put Iron Will on at all is because it was A) Thematically appropriate, and B) it's a really commonly taken feat anyway. But you're right, we don't need it. In fact, I don't see the harm in letting players get immunity to Detect Thoughts fairly early on. Feats asre supposed to be significant, after all. I'll just remove the Iron Will and people will be none the wiser.

Duckluck's picture
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Factor
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Alignment On Ortho

All right, new version note that I've added a feat and replaced the Iron Will with a Bluff requirement. Let me know what you think:

Inscrutable [General]

Benefit: Your alignment aura is concealed from all forms of divination as with an Undetectable Alignment spell. You also gain a +4 bonus to Bluff checks made to conceal or misrepresent your alignment.

Unknowable [General]
Prerequisites: Bluff 5 ranks, Inscrutable,.
Benefit: You are immune to Detect Thoughts and similar effects as if you were protected by a Ring of Mind Shielding. You also gain a +4 bonus to Bluff checks made to conceal or misrepresent knowledge.

Indiscernible [General]
Prerequisites:
Bluff 8 ranks, Unknowable
Benefit: You are impossible to locate via Clairevoyance/Clairaudience, Detect spells, and similar effects as if you were affected by a Nondetection spell. Unlike with a Nondetection spell, there is no way to overcome this resistance. You also gain a +4 bonus to Bluff checks made to hide or misrepresent locations.

Charles Phipps's picture
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Alignment On Ortho

Here's a take on Ortho and Alignment...

Alignment on Ortho

Ortho is different from most other Prime Material worlds in that it has a strong slant towards the Lawful. Gamemasters should keep in mind that the people of Ortho have a universal government and strong adherence to certain beliefs that coat much of their interactions with others. While the descriptions below are by no means universal, they tend to represent the situation of average members of society with particular alignments.

Lawful Good: Lawful Good members of society are extremely prevalent on Ortho, perhaps twice as many as in regular D&D. They tend to be idealistic members of Ortho society that provide much of the motivational force for going out and making the universe a better place. While many Lawful Good members of society are disquieted by some of the deeds of their fellows, most tend to support the ordered society that the Harmonium has brought. The rampant militarism of Ortho tends to preclude pacifist Lawful Goods and they tend to favor a strongly warfare orientated view of the world.

Lawful Neutral: Lawful Neutral may be the most common alignment on Ortho and is the prevelant ethos of the average citizens. A stereotypical citizen of Ortho is meticulously obedient to the Harmonium. They are motivated by a combination of fear of punishment, harsh religion, jingoistic patriotism, and societal traditions that regiment nearly every aspect of life. The average citizen is quick to inform on those who genuinely disturb the public peace and unwilling to stick their neck out for what they believe to be right. Most members of the Harmonium military are devoted to the rule of Law but lack both idealism and cynicism to motivate them.

Lawful Evil: Lawful Evil is the most prevalent evil alignment on Ortho and reasonably well tolerated. Ruthless and ambitious people can find ample outlet for their darker impulses in the service of the Harmonium. Many of Ortho's criminals tend to be Lawful Evil as well. These individuals manage to thrive by working with the system rather than against it. Most are deeply cynical about the nature of humanity and justify their activities under the view that only rigid control can keep man's darker impulses in check. Both corrupt members of the Harmonium and fanatics can be found in this alignment.

Neutral Good: Neutral Good individuals on Ortho often find themselves slightly out of step with the rest of society. Their firm commitment to good and willingness to bend regulations is a constant source of irritation to higher ups. Many find themselves frustrated with the consistent focus on the ordered rather than the just. Ironically, these individuals are frequently the most successful at pulling success out of difficutl areas. A Neutral Good member of the Harmonium can expect to go far, if he manages to cover his tracks. Strangely, The Lords of Chaos often draw their evil priests from these ranks as much as those aligned to Chaos.

Neutral: Neutral members of society in Ortho are motivated by their own desires and not above shirking their expected duties. The people of Ortho tend to judge Neutral individuals as insufficiently motivated in their beliefs as the idea of a balanced approach to life is something that most can't really wrap their mind about. The typical neutral citizen of Ortho is often unwilling to go the extra mile in the service to Law that most others are. Quite a few of them find themselves in dead end positions thanks to the structure of the world demanding that they follow an exacting system to succeed. Strangely, The Lords of Chaos often draw their evil priests from these ranks as much as those aligned to Chaos.

Neutral Evil: Neutral Evil individuals in Ortho are those types willing to do whatever it takes to succeed. Their willingness to break the rules and also follow plans is something that often leads to short term success. Most are eventually found and caught after they overreach themselves. The Neutral Evil often find that the best place for their attitude is in Venture marketing as the mobile nature of the trade and less regulated nature of it is a perfect cover for all manner of activities. Strangely, The Lords of Chaos often draw their evil priests from these ranks as much as those aligned to Chaos.

Chaotic Good: Chaotic Good individuals often find life on Ortho to be Hellish. The stifling and regimented nature of the world is something that always exists in the back of one's mind. Independent and free-thinking individuals do not find their views welcome on Ortho. Furthermore, the idea that goodness can be achieved without a rigid devotion to order is something that is anathema to Harmonium doctrine. The pressure to conform is immense and many flee to isolated areas to try to escape the constant mental abuse.

Chaotic Neutral: Those who value their independence more than anything are treated as enemies of the public order. Many people who'd otherwise just be layabouts or extreme individualists in other worlds are forced into banditry or prison. The Chaotic Neutral often find that the only way to get Harmonium members to respect their position is through violence. Thus, many are forced into lives on the run with almost nowhere to hide. A shocking amount end up in service to the evil Gods of Chaos or Alzrius despite being otherwise decent individuals.

Chaotic Evil: The Chaotic Evil on Ortho are considered the ultimate enemies of the Harmonium. The laws are deliberately designed to enforce the maximum penalty for individuals inclined to both violence and a lack of ability to conform. It is very difficult for Chaotic Evil individuals to hide their depredations and almost impossible without the aid of magic. The number of executions of their ranks is tremendous. Oddly, this has lead to the remainder of Chaotic Evil individuals often producing far more capable and dangerous members than on other worlds. A self-motivated man with no morals that can blend in is often able to thrive once he understands the law (and can deftly avoid it).

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