After Squaring the Circle (Possible Spoilers)

10 posts / 0 new
Last post
Mellagorus's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2011-06-04
After Squaring the Circle (Possible Spoilers)

I'm a bit curious as to any references official or otherwise that might exist about events after the adventure Squaring the Circle.

I'm mostly interested on the huge ramifications this would have that seem not have been addressed at all. While it would be consistent with the role that Planescape gave Yugoloths; which itself isn't too incompatible with later material depicting fiends; it does stretch credibility that something as huge as teleportation by fiendish societies used to it ( thought the use of the word is rather liberal with the Tanar'ri ) would be incredibly affected by it.

An while Yugoloths are masters of manipulation and double-dealing they can't react to what they don't know. Which means that if proper discretion is used with regards to important projects it is almost impossible for Yugoloths to place themselves as "necessary" for anything. Which means that the "friendly" Yugoloth who'll drive barmy with with the concept of "To trust or not to trust" either knew ahead of time what you were up to and what would make you listen to it or simply created the circumstances that would force you to turn to it, which in itself isn't too different from any evil opportunist in the planes ( Or at least the smarter ones ).

The problem with believeability I have is that any Tanar'ri above the caste of Goristro or any Baatezu above the rank of Barbazu have enough presence of mind to deduce what's said in the above paragraph. Wouldn't heavy hitters like the Abyssal Lords and the Lords of the Nine, as well as the smattering of Fiend nobles beneath each group start intervening directly in planar and eventually Yugoloth affairs after being personally stripped of an of their arguably most powerful ability ?

sciborg2's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2005-07-26
Re: After Squaring the Circle (Possible Spoilers)

I can't remember, but I think was implied that the 'loths come see through other fiends - or at least observe them without their knowledge.

There is also the fact of the baernoloths. Having created, directly or not, all the fiends they maintain some measure of power of their races. I can't remember if it is canon but I remember reading that some baern Demented have tanar'ri AND baatezu working for them.

So, yeah, beings other than fiends can plan around yugoloths - they don't control Heaven and the Neutral Planes but have a huge stake in the Lower ones.

Bit of an aside -> I like the 'loth creation myth, but like all creation stories it radically shifts the game in my head - I also liked the Rajaat stuff in Dark Sun but was ultimately disappointed with the knowledge that he was responsible for inventing magic AND the race wars AND the Sun Magic AND other stuff I can't remember.

Finally, for perhaps the greatest ever work on yugoloths I point you to Shemeska's Story Hour (who I just congratulated on writing Paizo's Book of the Damned III):

http://www.enworld.org/forum/story-hour/77613-shemeskas-planescape-story...

__________________

Health Resources: Register family with 911 services, so providers will have info prior to emergency/disaster. Also mental health info & hotlines, articles, treatment assistance options, prescription assistance, special needs registries, legal aid, and more!

Hyena of Ice's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2009-09-25
Re: After Squaring the Circle (Possible Spoilers)

Don't forget the General of Gehenna, the one who created the Baatorians and Obyriths in the first place.

Also, as far as I can tell, the Yugoloths's primary role in the Blood War is to keep anyone from winning, in order to keep Evil balanced between law and chaos.
I cannot explain their reason for the whole teleportation thing, beyond that it seemed to be hinted as a 'first step' in some plan to eventually rule the Multiverse-- or at least the evil parts. So maybe the eventual goal is to eliminate the lawful and chaotic-aligned fiends in order to restore evil to its "purest and true state" of neutral evil.

Hyena of Ice's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2009-09-25
Re: After Squaring the Circle (Possible Spoilers)

There is also the fact of the baernoloths. Having created, directly or not, all the fiends they maintain some measure of power of their races. I can't remember if it is canon but I remember reading that some baern Demented have tanar'ri AND baatezu working for them.

The canon has it that the Baernaloths created the Yugoloths to enforce their will (kinda like divine servants), before retreating into obscurity Deist-style. A rogue Baernaloth created the Demodands/Farastu.
After a certain amount of time, the 'loths began to adopt ideas and the like from the lawful and chaotic races. The General of Gehenna (the eldest 'loth, the most powerful 'loth, and true leader of the race) used the Heart of Darkness (powerful artifact) to purge these "impurities" from his race and his plane, and cast them to the Abyss and Baator. These impurities took form and became the first Baatorians and Obyriths.
The Baernaloths themselves were created spontaneously during the Gray Waste's initial creation cycle and before the birth of mortals, probably during or shortly after the spontaneous creation of the Protogenoi (the primordial powers such as Gaea, Nyx, Uranus, Kossuth, etc. who were not originally and do not require worship to survive)
The first Baatezu were fallen angels/aasimon led by Asmodeus. After the Pact Primeval, they moved to Baator and committed genocide on the native Baatorians.
The Tanar'ri were created directly from petitioners and borne by Pale Night, who more or less betrayed the Queen of Chaos. When the Obyrith lost the Law-Chaos war, the Abyss abandoned them in favor of the Tanar'ri (though IIRC this was being set up to happen prior to the use of the Rod of 7 Parts) Only a few Obyrith lords remain, and most of them are either imprisoned or slowly wasting away-- only Pazuzu and Dagon are in good condition-- dagon because he was the most powerful of the surviving Obyrith *probably, most of the 'nourishment' he receives now comes from worshippers rather than the Abyss's essence*, and Pazuzu because he has slowly transformed himself into a Tanar'ri, thus regaining the Abyss's favor.

Idran's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2007-06-10
Re: After Squaring the Circle (Possible Spoilers)

Hyena of Ice wrote:
After a certain amount of time, the 'loths began to adopt ideas and the like from the lawful and chaotic races. The General of Gehenna (the eldest 'loth, the most powerful 'loth, and true leader of the race) used the Heart of Darkness (powerful artifact) to purge these "impurities" from his race and his plane, and cast them to the Abyss and Baator. These impurities took form and became the first Baatorians and Obyriths.

I thought the impurities became the first larva? Meaning that they would eventually become the baatorians, baatezu and tanar'ri, yeah, but the obyriths didn't come from larvae. In fact, the obyriths had to explicitly figure out how to take these useless-seeming larvae everywhere and change them into tanar'ri.

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Re: After Squaring the Circle (Possible Spoilers)

True enough. Baatezu don't come (directly) from larvae either - only tanar'ri and baatorians do. Baatezu could inherit the sins of the ancient baatorians from the nupperibos they once were, however.

The baernaloths are still rumored to have played some role in the creation of the obyriths (by the obyriths' own testimony), but you're right that they didn't make them from larvae.

Hyena of Ice's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2009-09-25
Re: After Squaring the Circle (Possible Spoilers)

Well, I would presume that the Baernaloths had a major hand in the creation of the Heart of Darkness; I can't picture the General of Gehenna himself having enough power to create that thing on his own (unless he used souls of petitioners/larvae, problem is that petitioner-based technology wasn't available back then, and it seems far more likely to me at least that it would be created by the Baernaloths and bestowed to the General of Gehenna rather than created by him via some long and arduous process using souls, especially since the books are quite clear that the General of Gehenna is one of the few 'loths who still have any contact with the Baernaloths, as I recall.)

BTW, I've been trying to come up with a Daemonic clerical domain for worshippers of the General of Gehenna (via the feats in Champions of Ruin), but I need three uniquely Yugoloth-like spells in the same vein as those from the Demonic and Infernal domains. Preferrably spells of the 2nd, 3rd, and 7th level. *3.5 rules, here*
Any ideas?

His other domains BTW would be Evil, Trickery, and War.
The Oinoloth's OTOH would be Yugoloth plus Evil, Pestilence, and Pain.

Haven't decided what Charon's would be, but he doesn't get the Yugoloth domain (probably gets the Water domain, though)

Idran's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2007-06-10
Re: After Squaring the Circle (Possible Spoilers)

If you're okay with using Pathfinder, the APG includes a Daemon subdomain of the Evil domain you could use for that purpose. And the concept of subdomains is pretty easy to port into 3.5.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/domains#SD-Daemon

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Re: After Squaring the Circle (Possible Spoilers)

Actually, maybe there should be a distinction between those larvae that were spun off from the sins of the yugoloths and those larvae that were created from mortal souls.

The obyriths were not created from mortal souls (and neither were the ancient baatorians!), but they might have evolved from the yugoloth larvae, eons before.

Hyena of Ice's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2009-09-25
Re: After Squaring the Circle (Possible Spoilers)

Yeah, there's a distinction to be made: the ones spun off from Yugoloth sins are fully ripened. The ones from mortals require a great deal of processing.

If you're okay with using Pathfinder, the APG includes a Daemon subdomain of the Evil domain you could use for that purpose. And the concept of subdomains is pretty easy to port into 3.5.
Actually, I was looking to make one in the exact same light as the Demonic and Diabolic domains.

After that, the Slaad, Modrons, Genies, Rilmani, and Elementals still need a racial domain (so far we've got Demonic and Diabolic, Celestial for Angels and Guardinals, Fey for Eladrin, Herald for Archons, Entropy for Obyriths, and Hunger for ghouls)

Planescape, Dungeons & Dragons, their logos, Wizards of the Coast, and the Wizards of the Coast logo are ©2008, Wizards of the Coast, a subsidiary of Hasbro Inc. and used with permission.