Advanced Firearms

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Gerzel's picture
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factotums
Joined: 2004-05-10
Advanced Firearms

Here are some firearms that a character of mine for shemmy's next game will probably be using. These may not be the final stats but here they are as it stands. These are from a prime that is advanced well into the rennaisance as far as tech goes.

Illustian Firearms***
Name....................Cost*....Damage....Crit .....Range....Weigh...Type
Naval Pistol............250........ 3d6......19-20X3 ..50ft .......3lb....Piercing
Officer's Pistol........600**......3d6......18-20X3...60ft........3lb....Piercing
Musket..................500..........4d6......19-20X3...150ft......10lb..Piercing
Long Rifle..............745**.......4d6.....18-20X3...200ft.......12lb..Piercing
*Cost is for the Illustian militaries and cities and will be much higher on the planes.
**This weapon is always masterwork
***All firearms are flint-locks and have a mishap on a roll of 1-3.
Firearm Mishaps roll 2d6
2. explosion - barrel breaks wielder rolls damage, making a crit check against her own AC, No save.
3-5. explosion - wielder takes normal weapon damage. Barrel broken.
6-8. Misfire - wielder takes half normal damage, a reflex save DC 20 negates, and weapon is inoperable until a repair roll (Craft: Firearms) DC 25 can be made.
9-11. Jam - Weapon does not go off. A repair roll DC 10 is required to clear the jam and ready the weapon for firing.
12. Jam - Weapon goes off, but half range increment and re-roll attack at a -6 circumstance penalty.

Korimyr the Rat's picture
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Advanced Firearms

I think your weapon damages, range increments, and critical ranges/multipliers are way out of line-- I'd recommend you check out the firearms in d20 Modern or d20 Past instead.

Remember, firearms don't need to do much more damage than swords in order to be appropriately lethal-- swords are fully capable of killing the average person in one or two good blows, as well, and there are stories of people surviving a handful of gunshots.

Ohtar Turinson's picture
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Advanced Firearms

I second Korimyr's statement, and I think that mishaps will happen too often.

In d20 Modern a pistol does 2d4 or 2d6 damage. It's doing as much damage as a sword, but it's doing it more reliably than most swords do, much like a gun really would. Rifles do more- 2d8 or 2d10 I think.

I'd say mishaps on 1 or 2. That's still pretty often, but this compensates somewhat for the extremely high critical hit numbers. You might want to decrease the amount of numbers leading to explosion a little bit, and increase Jams.

Loki De Carabas's picture
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Firearm Resources

Might I suggest you check out the following:

1)Sorcery and Steam ifrom Legends and Lairs is a steampunk resource that has extensive and well balanced stats for primitive firearms.

2) Dragon Magazine #321 from July '04 contains a fantastic article called The Way of the Gun. Appropriate skills, feats, and accessories as well as the weapons themselves.

Since my own game fuses Spelljammer and Planescape, firearms are fairly common in many of the spheres my PCs encounter, so balanced treatments are something I actively dig for......

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eldersphinx's picture
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Advanced Firearms

Heh. I'll weigh in on the other side of matters - to be properly feared in a fantasy campaign setting, firearms have to be more dangerous than swords and bows. Firearms require an exotic weapons feat; reload at the same speed as crossbows, if you're lucky; have a nasty tendency of going poof whenever you're hit with a magical fire attack; and will never, ever be found enchanted in a treasure horde.

The firearms I created for my 20th-century-thrown-into-Lost-World setting weren't quite as impressive as yours (damage generally of 1d10 or 1d12, with critical range of 16-20 or equivalent) but were intended to fill the role of +3 or +4 weapons for as long as the characters could keep ahold of them and stay in bullets. (Which was, needless to say, not long - ammo resupply when the highest-tech civilization is Bronze Age Grecian is a bit tough. Laughing out loud)

The one caution I'd make is on the prices and availability of the Officer's Pistol and the Long Rifle. Given that these weapons are always masterwork (which'd cost +300 gp to add to the simpler firearms) and also get improved crit chance and range, they're probably underpriced. I'd really consider upping the prices on these two weapons by half again their current value, at a minimum... just for balance's sake.

Tenshi's picture
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Advanced Firearms

Personally I think that most of those weapons are acurate, atleast the rifles and musket are, the pistols in my opinion should be dropped one HD size lower though Laughing out loud

Fidrikon's picture
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Factor
Joined: 2004-12-19
Advanced Firearms

Quote:
The firearms I created for my 20th-century-thrown-into-Lost-World setting weren't quite as impressive as yours (damage generally of 1d10 or 1d12, with critical range of 16-20 or equivalent) but were intended to fill the role of +3 or +4 weapons for as long as the characters could keep ahold of them and stay in bullets. (Which was, needless to say, not long - ammo resupply when the highest-tech civilization is Bronze Age Grecian is a bit tough. Very Happy)

Not really. Remember Nordom's crossbows? They made their own ammo. So I guess if you could find a way to have a Gear Spirit make your ammo, then you have yourself a means.

Clueless's picture
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Webmonkey
Joined: 2008-06-30
Advanced Firearms

There's also something to be said for balance within the game itself. Our 'gun bunny' .... is our party *tank*. So, it's not nessecarily a *bad* thing that he have these in consideration of the game context - we needed someone who could hit hard.

Shemmie has a habit of looking at things and then looking at them within the context of his game and adjusting to fit. Makes him a good GM, but it also means what's balanced for his setting isn't always well balanced for others. Rule 0 is a godsend in those circumstances.

For his game it is being presumed that getting replacement parts, or further enhancements will be hard if I recall right. Flintlock weapons take reload time - and when you're a fighter, what that translates into is giving up your 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc attacks for that round. Remember, unless you have quickdraw - drawing a weapon takes a move so you can't just draw a backup pistol. Dual wielding is also still hard with a gun, giving you penalties and you lose the use of a shield. So it's not *that* delightful. It's something that's definately nasty early on - but later on becomes more and more unimpressive. Plus - as much water as we ran into in the last session... water + blackpowder weapons = bad mojo. Eye-wink

Sliver Overlord's picture
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Advanced Firearms

Compare to this though! Your Weapons are comparable to Lazer and Plamsa Weapontry from D20 Fueture

Ranged Weapons Table
Ranged weapons are described by a number of statistics, as shown on Table: Ranged Weapons.
Damage: The damage the weapon deals on a successful hit.
Critical: The threat range for a critical hit. If the threat is confirmed, a weapon deals double damage on a critical hit (roll damage twice, as if hitting the target two times).
Damage Type: Ranged weapon damage is classified according to type: ballistic (all firearms), energy (of a specific type), piercing (some simple ranged weapons), or slashing (a whip). Some creatures or characters may be resistant or immune to some forms of damage.
Range Increment: Any attack at less than this distance is not penalized for range. However, each full range increment causes a cumulative –2 penalty on the attack roll. Ranged weapons have a maximum range of ten range increments, except for thrown weapons, which have a maximum range of five range increments.
Rate of Fire: Some ranged weapons have a rate of fire of 1, which simply means they can be employed once per round and then must be reloaded or replaced. Firearms, which operate through many different forms of internal mechanisms, have varying rates of fire. The three possible rates of fire for handguns, longarms, and heavy weapons are single shot, semiautomatic, and automatic.
Single Shot: A weapon with the single shot rate of fire requires the user to manually operate the action (the mechanism that feeds and cocks the weapon) between each shot. Pump shotguns and bolt-action rifles are examples of firearms with single shot rates of fire. A weapon with the single shot rate of fire can fire only one shot per attack, even if the user has a feat or other ability that normally allow more than one shot per attack.
Semiautomatic (S): Most firearms have the semiautomatic rate of fire. These firearms feed and cock themselves with each shot. A semiautomatic weapon fires one shot per attack (effectively acting as a single shot weapon), but some feats allow characters armed with semiautomatic weapons to fire shots in rapid successions, getting in more than one shot per attack.
Automatic (A): Automatic weapons fire a burst or stream of shots with a single squeeze of the trigger. Only weapons with the automatic rate of fire can be set on autofire or be used with feats that take advantage of automatic fire.
Magazine: The weapon’s magazine capacity and type are given in this column. The amount of ammunition a weap¬on carries, and hence how many shots it can fire before needing to be reloaded, is determined by its magazine capacity. How the firearm is reloaded depends upon its magazine type. The number in this entry is the magazine’s capacity in shots; the word that follows the number indicates the magazine type: box, cylinder, or internal. A fourth type, linked, has an unlimited capacity; for this reason the entry does not also have a number. Weapons with a dash in this column have no magazines; they are generally thrown weapons, or weapons (such as bows) that are loaded as part of the firing process.
Box: A box magazine is any type of magazine that can be removed and reloaded separately from the weapon.
Cylinder: A revolver keeps its ammunition in a cylinder, which is part of the weapon and serves as the firing chamber for each round as well. Unlike box magazines, cylinders can’t be removed, and they must be reloaded by hand. However, most revolvers can be used with a speed loader. Using a speed loader is much like inserting a box magazine into a weapon. Without a speed loader, a firearm with a cylinder magazine must be loaded by hand.
Internal: Some weapons keep their ammunition in an internal space, which must be loaded by hand. This is the case with most shotguns, as well as some rifles.
Linked: Some machine guns use linked ammunition. The bullets are chained together with small metal clips, forming a belt. Typically, a belt holds 50 bullets; any number of belts can be clipped together. In military units, as the gunner fires, an assistant clips new ammunition belts together, keeping the weapon fed.
Size: Size categories for weapons and other objects are defined differently from the size categories for creatures. The relationship between a weapon’s size and that of its wielder defines whether it can be used one-handed, if it requires two hands, and if it’s a light weapon.
A Medium-size or smaller weapon can be used one-handed or two-handed. A Large weapon requires two hands. A Huge weapon requires two hands and a bipod or other mount.
A Small or smaller weapon is considered a light weapon. It can be used one-handed and, as a light weapon, is easier to use in your off hand.
Weight: This column gives the weapon’s weight when fully loaded.
Purchase DC: This is the purchase DC for a Wealth check to acquire the weapon. This number reflects the base price and doesn’t include any modifier for purchasing the weapon on the black market.
Restriction: The restriction rating for the weapon, if any, and the appropriate black market purchase DC modifier. Remember to apply this modifier to the purchase DC when making a Wealth check to acquire the weapon on the black market.

Reloading Firearms
Reloading a firearm with an already filled box magazine or speed loader is a move action. Refilling a box magazine or a speed loader, or reloading a revolver without a speed loader or any weapon with an internal magazine, is a full-round action.
Loading a belt of linked ammunition is a full-round action. Linking two belts together is a move action.

Table: Ranged Weapons
Weapon Damage Critical Damage Type Range Increment Rate of Fire Magazine Size Weight Purchase DC Restriction
Handguns (require the Personal Firearms Proficiency feat)
Beretta 92F (9mm autoloader) 2d6 20 Ballistic 40 ft. S 15 box Small 3 lb. 16 Lic (+1)
Beretta 93R (9mm machine pistol) 2d6 20 Ballistic 30 ft. S,A 20 box Med 3 lb. 18 Res (+2)
Colt Double Eagle (10mm autoloader) 2d6 20 Ballistic 30 ft. S 9 box Small 3 lb. 16 Lic (+1)
Colt M1911 (.45 autoloader) 2d6 20 Ballistic 30 ft. S 7 box Small 3 lb. 15 Lic (+1)
Colt Python1 (.357 revolver) 2d6 20 Ballistic 40 ft. S 6 cyl. Med 3 lb. 5 Lic (+1)
Derringer (.45) 2d6 20 Ballistic 10 ft. Single 2 int. Tiny 1 lb. 14 Lic (+1)
Desert Eagle (.50AE autoloader) 2d8 20 Ballistic 40 ft. S 8 box Med 4 lb. 18 Lic (+1)
Glock 171 (9mm autoloader) 2d6 20 Ballistic 30 ft. S 17 box Small 2 lb. 18 Lic (+1)
Glock 201 (10mm autoloader) 2d6 20 Ballistic 40 ft. S 15 box Small 3 lb. 18 Lic (+1)
MAC Ingram M10 (.45 machine pistol) 2d6 20 Ballistic 40 ft. S, A 30 box Med 6 lb. 15 Res (+2)
Pathfinder (.22 revolver) 2d4 20 Ballistic 20 ft. S 6 cyl. Tiny 1 lb. 14 Lic (+1)
Ruger Service-Six (.38S revolver) 2d6 20 Ballistic 30 ft. S 6 cyl. Small 2 lb. 14 Lic (+1)
S&W M29 (.44 magnum revolver) 2d8 20 Ballistic 30 ft. S 6 cyl. Med 3 lb. 15 Lic (+1)
SITES M9 (9mm autoloader) 2d6 20 Ballistic 30 ft. S 8 box Tiny 2 lb. 15 Lic (+1)
Skorpion (.32 machine pistol) 2d4 20 Ballistic 40 ft. S, A 20 box Med 4 lb. 17 Res (+2)
TEC-9 (9mm machine pistol) 2d6 20 Ballistic 40 ft. S or A 32 box Med 4 lb. 14 Res (+2)
Walther PPK (.32 autoloader) 2d4 20 Ballistic 30 ft. S 7 box Small 1 lb. 15 Lic (+1)

Longarms (require the Personal Firearms Proficiency feat)
AKM/AK-47 (7.62mmR assault rifle) 2d8 20 Ballistic 70 ft. S, A 30 box Large 10 lb. 15 Res (+2)
Barrett Light Fifty (.50 sniper rifle) 2d12 20 Ballistic 120 ft. S 11 box Huge 35 lb. 22 Lic (+1)
Benelli 121 M1 (12-gague shotgun) 2d8 20 Ballistic 40 ft. S 7 int Large 8 lb. 17 Lic (+1)
Beretta M3P (12-gauge shotgun) 2d8 20 Ballistic 30 ft. S 5 box Large 9 lb. 16 Lic (+1)
Browning BPS (10-gauge shotgun) 2d10 20 Ballistic 30 ft. Single 5 int. Large 11 lb. 16 Lic (+1)
HK G3 (7.62mm assault rifle) 2d10 20 Ballistic 90 ft. S, A 20 box Large 11 lb. 19 Res (+2)
HK MP51 (9mm submachine gun) 2d6 20 Ballistic 50 ft. S, A 30 box Large 7 lb. 20 Res (+2)
HK MP5K (9mm submachine gun) 2d6 20 Ballistic 40 ft. S, A 15 box Med 5 lb. 19 Res (+2)
HK PSG11 (7.62mm sniper rifle) 2d10 20 Ballistic 90 ft. S 5 box Large 16 lb. 22 Lic (+1)
M16A2 (5.56mm assault rifle) 2d8 20 Ballistic 80 ft. S, A 30 box Large 8 lb. 16 Res (+2)
M4 Carbine (5.56mm assault rifle) 2d8 20 Ballistic 60 ft. S, A 30 box Large 7 lb. 16 Res (+2)
M-60 (medium machine gun) 2d10 20 Ballistic 100 ft. A Linked Huge 22 lb. 21 Mil (+3)
Mossberg (12-gauge shotgun) 2d8 20 Ballistic 30 ft. Single 6 int. Large 7 lb. 15 Lic (+1)
Remington 700 (7.62mm hunting rifle) 2d10 20 Ballistic 80 ft. Single 5 int. Large 8 lb. 17 Lic (+1)
Sawed-off shotgun (12-ga shotgun) 2d8 20 Ballistic 10 ft. S 2 int. Med 4 lb. 15 Illegal (+4)
Steyr AUG (5.56mm assault rifle) 2d8 20 Ballistic 80 ft. S, A 30 box Large 9 lb. 19 Res (+2)
Uzi (9mm submachine gun) 2d6 20 Ballistic 40 ft. S, A 20 box Large 8 lb. 18 Res (+2)
Winchester 94 (.444 hunting rifle) 2d10 20 Ballistic 90 ft. S 6 int. Large 7 lb. 15 Lic (+1)

Fell's picture
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Advanced Firearms

"Fidrikon" wrote:
Not really. Remember Nordom's crossbows? They made their own ammo. So I guess if you could find a way to have a Gear Spirit make your ammo, then you have yourself a means.
I don't recall reading that.

Care to point me in the right direction of the source?

Gerzel's picture
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factotums
Joined: 2004-05-10
Advanced Firearms

"Sliver Overlord" wrote:
Compare to this though! Your Weapons are comparable to Lazer and Plamsa Weapontry from D20 Fueture

However modern and future have slightly different damage rules. Also more modern does not nessasarilly equate to more damage. In many cases modern bullets do far less damage than muskets as they make cleaner wounds and are often much smaller diameter.

Also the damage is ment to reflect a fighting style. In the real world the advance of arms made other styles obsolete so they never really met on the battlefield. In D&D things are weighted towards the early rennaisance/late medieval styles.

Damage is more a factor of style rather than real weapon power. It is a reflection of how powerful we WANT the weapon in question to be not how powerful the weapon actually is. For example take the common dagger. Now lets consider the base wielder, say a 1st level warrior, and then lets give him a target say a 20th level fighter. Now awake that warrior and dagger can't do anything to the fighter. Even a coup-de-gras would not seriosly injure the fighter if you go by the rules. However do you think if this were a realistic situation that if the warrior got into a position to coup-de-gras that fighter that slitting that fighter's throat would indeed kill him? The reason the fighter has nothing to fear is because we don't want him to have anything to fear from that 1st level warrior and dagger, not because of how inherently powerful he is to the warrrior and dagger.

Krypter's picture
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factotums
Joined: 2004-05-11
Advanced Firearms

"eldersphinx" wrote:
Heh. I'll weigh in on the other side of matters - to be properly feared in a fantasy campaign setting, firearms have to be more dangerous than swords and bows. Firearms require an exotic weapons feat; reload at the same speed as crossbows, if you're lucky; have a nasty tendency of going poof whenever you're hit with a magical fire attack; and will never, ever be found enchanted in a treasure horde.

You're assuming that weapons in the game have to be perfectly balanced among themselves. Historically that was never the case. Firearms were an inferior choice for individual combat until well into the late 19th century. They only edged out melee weapons because they were a superior *en masse* weapon when combined with the right battlefield tactics and supporting cannon.

However, as Gerzel pointed out, D&D rules are not that realistic to begin with, so assigning a devastating damage rating to firearms could be the effect a DM is seeking.

Gerzel's picture
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factotums
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Advanced Firearms

"Krypter" wrote:
However, as Gerzel pointed out, D&D rules are not that realistic to begin with, so assigning a devastating damage rating to firearms could be the effect a DM is seeking.

Yes. Basically I'm saying is that if a character especially a fighter takes a particular weapon as their signature they should be able to use it effectively. There is a certain amount of effect that is the weapon itself but most of the effect (Damage, To-Hit, & ect.) is because of the wielder in D&D. Look at the difference between a 1st level fighter and a 10th level fighter specialized in say a great sword. The difference in taking an attack from one or the other is quite substantial and has little to do with the weapon itself that they use. Now off-the-wall weapons should be harder to specialize in but a gun is hardly an off-the-wall weapon.

BeefotronX's picture
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Advanced Firearms

Let's compare this with a light crossbow. 1d8 damage, 19-20/x2 crit.
Average damage: 4.5 Average crit damage: 9

.85(4.5)+.1(9)= 4.725 average damage per attack, assuming that all attack rolls apart from 1's hit and all crits are confirmed. Yes, there's also the chance that the crit isn't confirmed but that's a little too much math for not much of a difference in the final result. Now, a light crossbow gets one attack per round unless one has the Rapid Reload feat.

Just for another comparison, the heavy crossbow, a lot like the light except 1d10 damage.
.85(5.5)+.1(11)=5.775 average damage per attack. One attack every other round, or one per round with Rapid Reload.

Allow me to recommend the stats I use in my campaign:
Pistol -- Dam 2d6, crit 19-20/x3, range 30'
Musket -- Dam 2d8, crit 19-20/x3, range 30'
Rifle -- Dam 2d8, crit 18-20/x3, range 150'
Accuracy really, really suffers without rifling, which is why the range increments are lower.

Average damage per attack--
Pistol: .85(7)+.1(21)= 8.05 average damage per attack
Musket: .85(9)+.1(27) = 10.35 average damage per attack
Rifle: .80(9)+.15(27) = 11.25 average damage per attack

A gun requires two full-round actions(which provoke attacks of opportunity) to load. These actions do not need to be consecutive. A character with the Rapid Firearm Reload feat requires only two move actions to reload a gun, or one full-round action.

nick012000's picture
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factotums
Joined: 2004-05-19
Advanced Firearms

d20 Future gives stats for flintlock muskets under the Weren section (a race of aliens who are currently going through a Renaissance of their own).

Damage: 2d6
Critical: 20
Damage Type: Ballistic
Range Increment: 20'
Rate of Fire: Single-shot
Magazine: 1 internal
Size: Large (d20 Modern uses 3.0 weapon-sizing rules)
Weight: 14 lbs
Cost: 50gp (Purchase DC 15)

On a roll of a natural 1, the weapon breaks and cannot be fired again until repaired (Repair check DC 15).

princessbunny99's picture
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Advanced Firearms

I like the mishaps personally...it makes the gun a little more danger-esque Smiling

Kobold Avenger's picture
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Advanced Firearms

I've sort of based my firearm damage off of D20 Past, except that they don't completely follow the 2 dice of damage for firearms, since you can't use anything like doubletap or burstfire anyways with those guns.

Small arms:
Derringer/Light Pistol 2d8/19-20
Medium Pistol 1d10/19-20
Heavy Pistol 1d12/19-20
Light Revolver 1d10/19-20
Heavy Revolver 2d6/19-20

Long arms:
Light Musket/Fusil 1d10/19-20
Long Rifle 2d6/19-20
Carbine 2d6/19-20
Militairy Rifle 2d8/19-20
Repeating Carbine 2d6/19-20
Repeating Rifle 2d6/19-20
Shotgun 3d6/20
'Elephant' Gun 2d10/19-20
Hand Cannon 2d12/19-20

Ranges based more off of d20 past/ modern values and not the ridiculous D&D ranges, even crossbows and bows get reduced to D20 modern ranges. Rolling a 1 requires a craft firearms check DC 15 which can be done untrained. The result determines whether it misses, misfires, needs to be cleaned, backfires or blow ups. Using more expensive smokepowder as opposed to blackpowder reduces the severity of mishaps.

Most firearms are assumed to be Percussion cap to account for their relatively short reload times.

And there's also the point that firearms used in different planar environments might require alternate firing mechanisms and substances. For example in Limbo, Liquid Karach is used, which can also be used in many other places and environments except for lawful planes.

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Advanced Firearms

Personally, I'd just use the musket, and make it a simple weapon. The primary advantage firearms had was the small amount of training required to be proficient in them. You want a pistol, just drop it down to 2d4 and Medium/One Handed.

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