Adding Color to the Grey Wastes

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Palomides's picture
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Adding Color to the Grey Wastes

A while back, I had asked for feedback for what to tackle with the Planar Renovation Project (/forum/planar-renovation-project-0)

While I think the most egregious of the Outer Planes have been given decent renovations (or at least attempts were made), I did hear one complaint with which I had to agree. While several planes are decent in general, there are definitely layers or at least areas of the planes that could use some additional detail. Thus, I’ve started what I hope will turn into a series of topics called “Adding Color to …” [And yes, I appreciate the irony of the title in this case]

For example: The first layer of the Grey Wastes has unique species, conflict, unique sites, etc. The other two layers could (IMHO) use a little more detail

I was thinking a little about Niflheim and Pluton. My first thought was that maybe the three layers should exhibit increasing levels of bitter apathy and resignation. I mean Oinos has a lot going on and a lot of emotion involved (comparatively). There is warfare (although mostly by outsiders), there is plotting and manipulation, and there is virulent disease.

By contrast, when I think of Hades/Pluto and his realm, I think of a god that is truly spiritually dead and resigned to his bleak fate. He just sits in his dark realm with his hordes of wealth (which he doesn’t enjoy) and broods. [That might just be my take. I could see the counter-point that his passion for Persephone refutes this argument]

So if this model is followed as a starting point, what would the layer of Niflheim be like?
The official sources say that the layer has abundant plant life (although all of it grey). The layer is pervaded with mists that distort sight and sound and inhibiting long-range combat. If you want to fight on Niflheim, you usually have to get toe-to-toe.

To me, this all suggests a layer that is in-between the two extremes. While the residents may not plot as extensively as the yugoloths (and who does?), there is a small sliver of themselves that holds on to the passions of life. This isn’t seen most of the time; but on occasions, a resident can have a burst where he rages “against the dying of the light”. Sure the residents may not care enough to fight constantly, but when they run into a confrontation, they won’t back down and will fight to the end. Even in the terrain; it isn’t the mostly barren caverns of Pluton. This layer has plant “life” that struggles to exist even if it never thrives nor blooms.

To support this idea of a middle-stage draining, the town of Death of Innocence is found on this layer. This is a town with people that haven’t resigned to their fates and are trying, against all odds, to improve their lots

Even Hel’s traditional role is mildly more active than Hades’. In legend, Hel will play an important role in Ragnarok and her forces will eventually side with Loki.

To me, this seems like a mentality of someone who is mostly drained of motivation but who can find just enough spark within herself to rise up for one last fight.
Hel is also a goddess of disease as well as death which suggests, to me, a slightly more active role than Hades takes.

While there is definitely disease and conflict on the layer of Oinos, I could easily see it as Hel deriving her power from being able to extinguish this last spark of rebellion against the eventuality of death (of spirit). Deriving power from the last death throes of a person trying to fight back against a disease that is killing him.

By contrast, Hades presides over the souls that are absolutely spiritually dead with no spark of rebellion or individuality left.

Those were my initial ideas. Any feedback, contributions, or better suggestion? Most importantly, do you have any specifics to spice things up?

Palomides's picture
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Re: Adding Color to the Grey Wastes

I did some research on the Norse myths I remembered. A lot of this is already in the description for Niflheim but I'll include it anyway in case it inspired someone:

Niflheim – the name derives from “realm of mists” [or perhaps, “realm of darkness”]
Supposedly, the cold, deadly realm of Niflheim was existent at the beginning of time (although originally uninhabited). The ice from Niflheim interacted with the flames of Musphelheim to produce the gods and all of creation.
Niflheim is said to exist under the third root of the World Ash, Yggdrasil. It is said to have replaced the “Yawning Void” that existed there before [does this imply a re-ordering of the planes?]. The root above Niflheim is being gnawed away by the dragon/serpent, Nidhogg.

Later, Loki sired Hel and her brothers the Fernis Wolf and the Midgard Serpent. Hel was then cast down into Niflheim by Odin where she was given the power over those who died of sickness or old age. [It is implied that she was banished for the damage she and her brothers had done in Jotenheim where there were raised or the three were banished for the damage they were prophesied to do]

Hel has a great residence/mansions/hall here (sometimes called Helheim) surrounded by great gates and exceedingly high walls. She is said to have “great possessions” although I couldn’t tell with my limited research if this meant treasures or just the vast structure of her home.

In tales where gods or mortals had to enter Niflheim, they are said to have to penetrate a dark and misty cloud, and then continue along a path worn from heavy use over the ages (i.e. worn down from all the dead who have traveled this path).
Along the way, they encounter:
*a sunny region where women grow hemlock during the winter months
*a nine-day journey through valleys so deep and dark that one is effectively blind
*Gjoll, a river of blue-black water [part of the Styx?] full of rapids, icy waters and dangerous knives and weapons that float about and strike those in the waters. The name of the river means “noisy” or “resounding” perhaps describing the tumult of the rapids although we might make it to be the cries of mortals that unsuccessfully attempted to reach the realm of Hel and who now suffer eternally in the chaotic, painful waters
[Side note: Gjoll is also, in some tales, the name of the rock to which the Fernis Wolf is chained. I can’t think of any way to make a significant connection but I thought I’d mention it]
*spanning this river is a covered bridge, Gjallarbru, with a roof made of shining gold. The bridge is guarded by a giantess, Modgud [her name might mean “furious battler”], who attempts to prevent all but the dead from crossing. [Although other tales state that a visitor merely has to truthfully state his name and business in Niflheim to cross]
The bridge seems to amplify sound to painful levels making it difficult for all but the dead to cross
*nearby the bridge lies the massive walls and gates to true realm of Hel. Some tales state that prior to reaching the gates, one may pass vast armies in perpetual combat. These gates are often guarded by the blood-soaked dog Garmr
[Side note: Garmr is sometimes equated with the Fernis Wolf in legends]

The walls of Hel’s realm prevent all magical or mundane means of scaling or flying over them.
To open the gates, a female shaman guide took a rooster she had taken along on the journey, snapped its neck, and tossed the bird over the wall (which was now easily possible). The visitors then heard the reanimated (brought back to live or undead?) rooster crowing which magically opened the gates.
[I found this last item both creepy and unique enough that I’m sure to include it in my campaign]
In another tale, a god was able to leap his horse over the protective walls; but I feel this shouldn’t be possible for visiting mortals

Within Hel’s compound, there is a huge hall called Eljudnir [meaning “damp with rain and sleet”]. The entrance to the hall is called “Stumbling Block” and has a pitfall called Fallandaforad [meaning “falling to peril”]. Within, poison drips from ceiling and poisonous snakes cover the floors; the daily feast turn poisonous from the ceiling drainage and it is used to torture the starving dead

**Residents of Niflheim
-The dead in Hel’s realm are said to appear in a different color than the living. [Is this the color-drained grey of the plane or is this a unique coloring for this domain?]
-Depending on when one visits, the god Balder might be a permanent resident of Hel due to the manipulations of Loki. However, Balder is even respected by the cold goddess of death and sits in a seat of honor
-There are a group of [frost] giants killed by Thor shortly after the halls of Asgard were built and the giants went back on some oath they had made with the gods. As punishment, their souls were not allowed to join their compatriots in Jotunheim and Musphelheim
-Volvas – female shamans of great wisdom and power. In one case, Odin journeyed to Hel in order to ask information from one of these women concerning prophetic dreams that Balder was having. In this way, Odin gained much of his knowledge of Ragnarok including the fact that Hel’s armies will support Loki in the final conflict.
[Interestingly, he felt that he had to get the information while disguised. Are the volvas antagonistic to Odin?]
-Ganglati and Ganglot – serving maids of Hel [Both their names mean “lazy walker”, possibly a reference to a zombie-like status?]

**Sites/Items in Niflheim
-Hvergelmir – a well that is the source of several major (presumably dangerous) rivers
-“Hunger” – a serving dish belonging to Hel
-“Famine” – a dagger belonging to Hel
-Kor - Hel’s curtained bed [name means “sick bed”]
-Galgvior - a “sooty-red” rooster that is one of three (the others being in Jotunheim and Vahalla) that signal the beginning of Ragnarok when they begin crowing
-Helhest – a three legged horse that serves as Hel’s mount and is a harbinger of plague and pestilence [This appears to be a meshing of traditional Norse lore and Danish folklore, but I liked it so I included it]

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Re: Adding Color to the Grey Wastes

There are several unique creatures in Hades as well. It should be mentioned that in Greco-Roman mythology, Nyx and her family live here. So I would perhaps add an area to Pluton (Nyx's Castle or Castle of Dark Mists) where Nyx and her family meet (including Hypnos and Thanatos, and the cacodemons-- the entities released from Pandora's box), as a second divine realm. The only two members of Nyx's family who do not live there are Eris and Nemesis, both of whom live in Olympus in Greco-Roman mythology (specifically, Eris is the inseparable consort of Ares, and therefore lives in his stronghold with him, along with her cacodemon daughters the Machai.) Hoar could merely be the Faerunian aspect of Nemesis, since I believe she was the inspiration for the deity by the campaign setting's creators.

The following are creatures found on Pluton: (aterisk means the alignment is always as given)

*NN Caryatid Column (Fiend Folio)
NE Death Dog (Fiend Folio)
*_E Keres/Ker (EN World Converted)
_E Vampire (Monster Manual) (vampires are servants of Hecate)
*NE Yeth Hound (Monster Manual)

Palomides's picture
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Re: Adding Color to the Grey Wastes

Just for those not steeped in Greco-Roman mythology, Nyx is the goddess of darkness. [It took me a minute, but I was pleased that I could remember that without looking it up.]
She does seem like a good fit/addition to the third layer of the Wastes.
My one comment is that while Hades is sometimes described as being misty in the ancient tales, I would suggest giving that property almost exclusively to Niflheim just to make the two layers distinct. I think "Castle of Darkness" or "Citadel of Shadows" would be evocative enough without using "Castle of Dark Mists" (which is a cool name)

I looked up Hades on Wikipedia and was suprised that there was a map!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades
The Underworld is divided into Erebus (which serves as the "entry point" to the Underworld and is where the Styx forms the boundary to the true realms of the dead) and Tartarus (the true Underworld/Afterlife), which is further divided into:
-The Elysium Fields - where the good and heroic were rewarded
-Tartarus - where the evil and treacherous were punished
and (new to me)
-Asphodel Meadows - where the undistinguished and morally ambivalent went. Filled with Asphodel flowers, "described as a ghostly place that is an even less perfect version of life on earth". Here the spirits drearily ape out their daily routines in life

I know that Elysium and Tartarus (i.e. Carceri) are definitely used elsewhere. Aside from the Asphodel Meadows, most of the other features of Hades (e.g. Styx, Erebus, Acheron, Cocytus) got used in other places. So the traditional sources may not provide a lot of useable material for adding "color" to Hades/Pluton

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Re: Adding Color to the Grey Wastes

Here are some ideas from my personal notes. Don't recall which (if any) are original, so my apologies if I stole from you. Nonetheless, in an effort to spark some ideas, here's what I have:

Layer 2:
-Cauldron: The central town found on the second layer in the domain of the Celtic god, Annwn. He possesses a magical cauldron that can restore one to life. However, Annwn isn’t keen of restoring the dead to life. For this reason, the cauldron is guarded by the Bone Warriors, a group that don a special armor that makes them appear as large skeletons with a spectral body within. In this form, they have the benefits of a skeleton (half damage from slashing weapons, etc.) but none of the penalties (cannot be turned, etc.)
-The Coagulated Sea: filled with dread monsters and cluttered with gold-laden, becalmed ships whose pirate crews are locked in immobility.
-The Forest of Irmine Sul: Irmine Sul was a night hag who dared to cut flesh and sap from mighty Yggdrasil. She took the bleeding harvest up from Niflheim to Oinos, and planted the cuttings around her cottage. Set in a mulch of chopped corpses, watered by the river Styx, and tended by black necromancy, her crop grew slowly - but grow it did. Legend says that perverted from all natural growth by the Waste, they grew upside down with only their roots breaching into the air. The result looked more like rotting flesh than wholesome vines… but each grew large enough to ensnare a titan in their coils, and upon each root grew thorns as long as daggers, oozing with thick black poison. The forest of giant roots soon stretched for many miles around Irmine Sul’s cottage, twitching and curling like the languid tentacles of some enormous undead illithid. Those unfortunate enough to catch a scratch from the movement of the poisoned thorns swiftly joined the remains of other unlucky travelers and were churned into mulch by the slow grind of the roots, until only bones remained. Irmine Sul herself is said to have perished this way, betrayed by the plants she tended. Even without her ministrations however, the forest flourished. The Forest of Irmine Sul is not without its usefulness. Its poisons can be harvested, the mangled remains looted. And twisted though they are, the shade of its giant roots does mute the draining gloom, making the forest an unlikely respite from the Fade. This property has not gone unnoticed by the fiends; once used as a place of rest and respite by Blood War forces, this purpose was swiftly corrupted: All sides now send soldiers creeping through its shadowed expanse only to prey upon each other with stealth and brutality. The respite camps and medical tents lie empty now, their resources sitting spoiled and unused. Only a fool moves openly in the forest of Irmine Sul these days. Attempts to take further cuttings of the Great Tree have proved unsuccessful – the fates wish no rival for Yggdrasil, it seems. Whatever secret means the hag used to nurture the plants was also unique, for mad attempts to spread them further have continually failed. Perhaps the answers to these mysteries lie at the very centre of the forest, in the cottage of Irmine Sul. Abandoned for many hundreds of years, it is inhabited these days only by the secrets and black lore she left behind - at least, that’s what people guess. No one has ever reached her lair in the closest depths of the forest… or at least, no one has ever done so and made their way out again.
-Garden of Afflictions: the grey, sickly plants here are actually manifestations of diseases.
-The Land of Eternal Rain: one of the few places you'll find any vegetation on this plane. It's the realm of Tlaloc, an Aztec power. Apparently he can draw the rain from this realm to anywhere on the Prime.

Layer 3:
-Fo Ling Po: an eerily silent, Oriental style city in which the undead residents (many with training in the martial arts) lead a passionless quiet existences with hardly ever speaking. All of their memories from life are magically tattooed over their bodies. Visitors are warned that staying here too long can cause one to become like them.
Residents can animate their tattoos to fight alongside them. But if the tattoo is “killed” that memory is destroyed, thus the residents only animate their tattoos when they are truly desperate. Residents do not accept coin but will trade items in exchange for a visitor’s memory. If the trade is accepted, the tattoo appears on the buyer and is completely lost from the visitor’s memory
The one exception is the energetic T’u Rien, the sole living resident. He bears no tattoos and is somehow immune to the draining effects of the Wastes. Rumor states that he is able to remain unchanged due to his feeding off of the story-memories of other residents.
-Hecate’s Realm: the domain of the demigoddess-master wizard that lies on the third layer. Circe resides here are cares for the realm in Hecate’s absence. One can buy items of dark magic here but one is even more likely to be harvested for components for necromantic spells
-Hill of Bones: on the third layer. It is said to be the place that nightmares go to die. Some speculate that at some point, the bones will reanimate into an undead nightmare army or into a titanic bone golem nightmare. Stealing bones from this pile invites the wraith of living nightmares
-The Valley of Crypts

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Re: Adding Color to the Grey Wastes

Speaking of Nyx and the Cacodemons, you might be interested in the whole Protogenoi history I've been working on in the timeline topic. The Protogenoi were the race of gods who preceeded the Titans, and include Nyx, Erebus, Gaea, and Uranus (Gaea is actually a Protogenai, not a Titan). If you're interested, you can read about it on theoi.com. Since Protogenoi is a generic enough term (meens "first generation" in Latin), I've also included the Ogdad and deities from other pantheons in that list (including Chauntea, Selune, and Shar, as well as the Elemental Lords of the Faerunian pantheon).
As per their description in Greco-Roman mythology and Egyptian mythology, the Protogenoi were originally elemental beings, though some of the still-remaining ones have since changed form. They were formed on the Inner Planes, and NOT the Outer Planes or Astral (unlike the Titans and later generations of powers). Eventually, most of them moved to the *at the time* still unformed Outer Planes after discovering the newly-formed Astral. However, the Outer Planes and Astral were the dominion of the Draeden, a species of planet-sized aberration left over from the previous creation cycle *the Draeden came to be when the previous multiverse was around 75~80% destroyed* It was the Protogenoi who went to war with the Draeden early in the Multiverse's history. This occurred before the birth of any mortal race, including the Aboleth, and IIRC, before the Yugoloths were even born. The war was ultimately a draw, with the Draeden deciding to go into a state of hibernation until the gods simply disappear. This process was slow and many of the Draeden didn't go into their slumber immediately.

Nyx and Erebus initially sided with the Draeden (not wanting matter to be created), but switched back to the side of their kin when the Draeden reacted to offer with violence.

The Protogenoi I have listed thus far are:
--Aether: The second-generation protogenos of light. He is the son of Nyx and Erebus.
--Akadi: The Elemental Lady of Air.
--Amun/Amaunet: One of the hermaphroditic Ogdoad, and Protogenos of creation and secrets. After suffering severe injuries in the Draeden War, he went on to become the Egyptian solar power Ra.
--Ananake: A protogena of innevitability and eternity. She is the mate of Chronus.
--Beory: The earth Protogena of Oerth.
--Chauntea: The earth Protogena of Toril
--Chronus: A protogenos of time, not to be confused with the Titan Cronus.
--Eris: A protogena of discord, and the most powerful of Cacodemons (beings unleashed from Pandora's box). She is the virgin daughter of Nyx, borne asexually. Like her mother, she has also borne many children asexually, all of them cacodemons. She is one of the few Cacodemons to ever reach deity status.
--Eros: Aka Eros-Phanes, the protogenos of procreation, not to be confused with the Olympian god of the same name.
--Gaea: The protogena of earth, and mother of the Titans.
--Grumbar: The Elemental Lord of Earth.
--Hemera: The second-generation protogena of day, daughter of Nyx and Erebus.
--Huh/Hauhet: One of the hermaphroditic Ogdoad, and Protogenos of eternity and infinity.
--Hydros: The protogenos of water. During the Draeden war he was sundered in two, into Oceanus and Pontus.
--Istishia: The Elemental Lord of Water.
--Kossuth: The Elemental Lord of Fire.
--Kuk/Kauket: One of the hermaphroditic Ogdoad, and Protogenos of darkness.
--Liga: The first incarnation of Pelor, originally a 2nd generation Protogenos of neutral alignment. Pelor is the fifth incarnation of the deity and probably a split off aspect.
--Lunitari: A third generation protogenoi of one of Krynn's moons.
--Nu/Naunet: One of the hermaphroditic Ogdoad, and Protogenos of primordial water.
--Nuitari: A third generation protogenoi of one of Krynn's moons.
--Nyx/Nox: A protogena of the night. She bore a few protogenoi with her brother Erebus, but also bore many cacodemons asexually. She is also the mother of the yugoloth lord known as Charon, the ferryman of the dead.
--Oceanus: A second-generation protogenos of the sea. He would later side with the Titans against his own people.
--Phanes: A protogenos or protogena of creation and positive energy, who eventually split into several beings, such as Eros, Phusis, and Thesis.
--Pontus: Oceanus's freshwater equivalent.
--Ptah: The protogenos of creation, associated with Amun and Ra, though it is unknown if or when one came before or after the other, or what their exact relationship is.
--Selune: A third-generation protogena of Toril's moon.
--Shar: A third generation protogena of the new moon; she is the twin sister of Selune.
--Solinari: A third generation protogenoi of one of Krynn's moons.
--Tartarus: A protogenos of the dark pit. He was either slain or forced into a dormant state by the Draeden, and the remaining Protogenoi built the prison plane Carceri over his body. Whatever the case, his essence remains intact on that plane and is vaguely aware, though Erebus stole some of his divine power and subsumed his portfolio. (note I think there is something about him in the 2E canon, but I don't recall off-hand)
--Thalassa: A third generation protogena of the sea, daughter of Aether and Hemera.
--Thesis: A protogena of creation, split off from Phanes. She was slain during the Protogenoi-Titan war and her portfolio subsumed by Metis and Tethys.
--Uranus: A protogenos of the heavens/sky. He and Gaea were the progenitors of the Titans.

It should be mentioned that there are two cacodemons which are Olympian rather than Protogenoi-- Phobos and Deimos, the sons of Ares (panic and dread, respectively).

Also, here is a good page for info on the various denizens of the Underworld (the underworld gods are collectively known as the Cthonioi)
http://www.theoi.com/greek-mythology/underworld-gods.html

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Re: Adding Color to the Grey Wastes

http://www.pathguy.com/graywast.htm

Here's an amazing site that gives plenty of interesting insights into Hades/The Gray Waste.

It has no stats or creatures but gives plenty towards the feel of the place. There's also plenty on other planes as well.

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Re: Adding Color to the Grey Wastes

I like a lot of Li Po's stuff too; but on the Grey Wastes, I don't think he has tapped into the generally-agreed-upon feel for the plane. [I might be wrong on that point, but it does feel that way to me]

Now having said that, that doesn't mean his ideas shouldn't be embraced to some degree, especially if the generally-agreed-upon Grey Wastes needs a little something more (which is what I felt when I started this thread)

For Oinos, the first layer, I believe that the GAU picture is of a vast grey [mostly barren?] battlefield filled with the aftermath of the devils and demons fighting.
Li Po has:
The layer of filth, disease and sick minds. (And lots of swampy terrain to reflect this)
Anthraxus and the other bestial lords of disease maintain their tower.
I know there are occasion passing references to disease in the Grey Wastes, it always struck me as an afterthought. I was suggesting disease residing on the second layer but I could easily see it here too along side the physical suffering of war
At the center, a whirlpool in the Styx returns the evil of evil visitors dying on the plane to their planes of origin. Perhaps this route…offers safe passage to those seeking to be rid of their own darker sides.
I believe this is my first exposure to this idea. If the whirlpool could actually be used for something aside from just being a travel hazard, it seems like it could be a good addition.
The Stymphalian birds [Greek man-eaters] flock in the foul and rotting marshes.
I don't recall this being in PS and I'd be tempted to place them on the layer of Pluton, but again, good addition
The theme here is depravity.
The spirits of the most flamboyantly evil suffer from grisly diseases as a sign of spiritual sickness.
This is the spiritual home of the most cruel of the sensualists and the sorcerers.
This is a common location for the headquarters of evil cults devoted to disease or magic.
This is a common location for the headquarters of evil cults devoted to disease, drugs, or dark sensuality.

I'm not sure I'm onboard with this. Most of these traits are things I'd associate with the Abyss(?) not with the emotionally deadening Grey Wastes.
But perhaps this is worth reconsidering. Should there be more emotion in areas of the Wastes? (Especially on the "most accessable" layer?) Even so, would "depravity" and "sensualists" fit in the draining of the Grey Wastes?

For Niflheim, I'm not sure what the GAU picture is except for being a dreary Norse-inspired landscape
Li Po has:
Niflheim is an arctic universe of … frost, fogs and mists.
The roots of the World Ash are gnawed here by the dragon Nidhogg
The walls and ceilings drip poison and the floors crawl with venomous snakes.

OK, so far, matches up with the dreary Norse landscape
The spirits of the most cold-hearted dead are locked into the trees and ice.
This is a new take to me, but not bad IMO
The theme here is hate and meaninglessness.
This is the spiritual home of all who consciously decided to live without loving others.
This is a common location for the headquarters of evil cults devoted to cold or hate.

While I can't say what the popular interpretation is for this layer, I don't think this is it. It's a pretty good religious allegory, but I'm not certain that "hate" (typically a strong emotion) fits well with the existential dread of "meaninglessness".
But maybe this is close to what I suggested where the residents are mostly emotionally crushed but have periodic outbursts of intense emotion.
[Side note: how does the Celtic god Arawn fit in this layer as he is "officially" located here?]

Finally, there is the Greek-influenced layer of Pluton. Aside from a carvernous realm with dark orchards and classical architecture, I don't know what the GUA picture of this layer is.
Li Po says:
Pluton is … fields of asphodel, classical sculptures, and black marble interiors, all dying or in disrepair...Guarded by Cerberus.
Pretty standard Greek myth
This is the spiritual home of all who made money their god. There is a realm in which souls are twisted into precious metals, stock certificates, and so forth. The love of wealth is displayed here as the root of all evil
A nice tying-in of Hades dual roles over death and wealth. Again, greed seems almost too strong of an emotion for the Grey Wastes (as I believe it is usually interpreted). Should this be changed?
The Coagulated Sea is here, filled with dread monsters and cluttered with gold-laden, becalmed ships whose pirate crews are locked in immobility.
Again, new to me but a decent idea
Here one can sell one's abilities, virtues, and soul
Fits in well with the themes he has going; but isn't there somewhere else where one can do this? [I'm thinking Gehenna for some reason]

So I guess my major complaint (too strong a word) with Li Po's ideas is that in order to support his allegory, he injected a lot more emotion than I think is typically depicted for this plane (aside from the hatred of fiendish combatants on the first layer).
What does everyone think, should there be some stronger emotions on this plane to inject it with a bit more "color"?

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Re: Adding Color to the Grey Wastes

I just had a thought. Perhaps the plane represents the end results of evil, where one is merely a burnt out shell of their former self, unfeeling, and empty.

Oinos could have more emotion that the rest of the plane, being that it's a major battlefield of the blood war. There, in fact, a persons emotions are heightened and their minds are active and eager, drawing out one's innermost conflicts and desires, and causing their thoughts to leap from idea to idea rapidly. As one gets deeper, heading into Niflheim, the blazing fire in their souls caused by Oinos begins to take it's toll, and they find that they run out of new ideas and thoughts, all being swallowed by the Gray Waste and they begin to despair. Perhaps sometimes the fog of this layer can display memories and thoughts lost by others.

By the time they reach Pluton they can no longer feel love, and end up making a cruel mockery of it, attempting to replace it with material wealth.

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Re: Adding Color to the Grey Wastes

Quote:
What does everyone think, should there be some stronger emotions on this plane to inject it with a bit more "color"?

When I try to think of one word that defines the Gray Waste more than any other, I think 'despair.' Hades is what you get when all hope is stolen from you, when you pass the state of misery and grief and are left with nothing, not even the ability to feel emotion for what you've lost.

That doesn't mean it's a plane with no emotions. There are many steps along the journey to utter Despair, and the plane wrings every torment, agony, and misery that it can from its victims along the way. Victims are left with no emotion only because they've experienced such heights of emotion that there are no more left to feel. It's a deeply sadistic plane, and calling it the plane of sadism is not an exaggeration.

The Gray Waste is a plane that greedily devours identity and everything that makes a sod what they are, including their emotions, but the plane itself isn't unemotional as such; or, at least, it possesses qualities - greed, hunger, envy, loss, sorrow, grief - that might be considered emotions, although they may not be much like human emotions, unleavened by human sentiment or sympathy. The plane exists to create misery, and then to even take misery itself away, leaving barren husks behind.

Some have named the Waste the plane of apathy. This is wrong. Apathy is the excrement left behind after the plane has eaten away at everything else. It's a side-effect, not the goal.

One of the best ways to get down to the core themes of a plane is to examine what happens to souls that arrive there. Most of the dead who come to Hades become larvae. My theory is that all living people have worms of evil twisting through their souls, growing fat on selfishness and sin, slowly devouring more and more of what was virtuous and compassionate until, in some few, nothing but the worm remains, and these mindless worms of evil drop squirming on to the Lower Planes. These larvae may be mindless, but they are still capable of suffering, and in the Gray Waste the night hags and other fiends torment them incessantly until they have no more to give. Unlike other outer planes, Hades also has transparent, wispy soul shades from which even substance has been stolen. For the soulshades, there is no future. Larvae may be incorporated into night hags as part of their reproductive system (they reproduce by devouring larvae) or they may be infected by the plagues and nightmares of the plane, swelling and mutating, any remaining personality traits and sins becoming exaggerated until they become one of the plane's gibbering array of hordlings.

Another way to identify a plane's themes is to examine its natives. There are the greedy, mercantile night hags, thieves of souls and hoarders of larvae. Then there are the baernaloths, the original masters of the plane, who dwelled in the Gray Waste even before it had fully formed. One of their chief abilities is to cause agony in those they encounter, then heal them, and then reopen the wounds in order to make them suffer again and again. This, then, is perhaps the core of the plane.

Disease is definitely a major theme of Oinos. It's certainly described as a place of plague and filth, the festering corpses of the Blood War in no small part contributing to that. Several major gods of disease, Incabulos and Yurtrek, dwell there, tainting the lands around them, but most importantly the station of the Oinoloth and possession of the Siege Malicious grants powers over disease as part of the rights and privileges of office. The master of Khin-Oin becomes "the yugoloth with disease powers."

Greed is an important part of the plane in general. Gods of greed include Hades, Abbathor, Ratri, and Kuraulyek (who stole wings from Syranita).

Death is another theme, as evidenced by the plane's many gods of the dead: Hades, Kelemvor, Arawn, Mictlantecuhtli, Hel. Along with the disease theme, this is probably part of the general themes of misery and the theft of everything that the plane encourages. It's true that every single one of the death-gods I just mentioned tend to be emotionless and either non-evil or barely evil, any passions they might once have had for their job long since drained away. They are left as mere cogs in the machinery of despair, contributing to the suffering without benefiting from it.

This is how I'd sum up the various layers:

Oinos: Disease, war, filth, nightmare, suffering, hoarding. Oinos is infection, horror, pus-filled welts, blood-filled lungs, necrosis. It is suffering for the sake of suffering. It is suffering with no cause. It is suffering with no beginnings; rather than creating its woes, the plane's greatest trick is to strip away everything but suffering, revealing the true agony that always exists and always will exist, on all planes and at all times. It pulls away the curtain and shows reality for the cruel joke it is. Oinos is the heart of the Blood War, transmuting its endless rage into endless, futile monotony. The dark of the Blood War is that it has no heart, and yet where it rages emptily, it rages most of all. There are no reasons for anything on this plane. The plane strips reasons away, and jerks its puppets around in displays of meaningless horror.

Oinos is also the plane of hoarders. Its god Abbathor, its night hags, even Yurtrus with his vaulted realm, protect their gains carefully, not sharing it with prying eyes. This is because they are selfish, of course, but also because they are old and confident. This is the first of the Glooms, and its inhabitants do not feel the need to prove their merit.

Oinos is the first gloom of Hades in more way than one. Not only is it closest to the Astral Plane, but it was the first part of the plane to come into being. It was, sages believe, the first of all lower planes. When the concept of Evil first reified into solid landscapes, Oinos was there, teaching itself what evil might mean. Other lower planes were founded later, either becoming corrupted by Oinos's proximity or founded by immigrants who had begun their lessons on Oinos and spread out to teach new forms of corruption.

But the biggest lesson of Oinos is disease. Disease is how the plane first shows its victims the meaning of despair. There are different lessons further down.

Niflheim: Niflheim, according to the Norse cosmology, is one of the oldest realms in existence, perhaps the oldest. Once Niflheim and its counterpart Muspelheim were all that is. Unlike Oinos, first of the lower planes, Niflheim was not always counted among the planes of evil. Niflheim contained all possibilities, frozen and inert, forever sterile until it came in contact with Muspelheim, which contained the energy and life needed to awaken Niflheim's possibility and turn it into actuality. During the age of creation, when Niflheim and Muspelheim shared the Ginnungagap, the two realms could interact and all other planes and realms formed in between them. Eventually the Ginnungagap grew too full; the World Ash expanded and forced the realms apart, the gods created new realms on other branches of the tree, and Niflheim and Muspelheim were no longer able to create. Niflheim is now once again frozen and dead, its remaining potential frozen forever, sterile and meaningless. Niflheim is now what happens when possibility dies. For this reason it has drifted into the Gray Waste, bonding with Oinos, the first plane of evil, in mutual despair.

Where disease is how despair primarily manifests itself in Oinos, in Niflheim despair manifests as death, and this layer has more realms of the dead than any other. The goddess Shar, who seeks to destroy all life and light and return the universe to the primal void as it was before potential awakened, dwells here as well. Panzuriel, who was once a creator god but now has been cast out, banished and impotent, has been stranded in a slowly dying sea in Niflheim, the sea shrinking as his remaining creative potential is exhausted from disuse. Pyremius, god of fire, poison, and murder, dwells in one of the few remaining remnants of the age of creation, a volcano that had been awakened by Muspelheim's touch but now smokes only because of the divine power Pyremius exhausts in order to sustain it. Niflheim is death created by the loss of power. It is death after all things have become lost or meaningless, sustaining and empowering nothing. It is the layer of loss, and its inhabitants were once more than they are. Even Hel was cast off, Loki's unwanted daughter.

Those who dig deep into Niflheim's frozen possibility might find strange things, creations that might have been but now can never be.

Pluton: Pluton is the third gloom of Hades, and the youngest and most artificial of the three. Where Niflheim is the potential abandoned and cast off after Creation went its own separate way , and Oinos is primal evil itself, Pluton was made by those whose despair resonated with the Waste but who held themselves separate from it. Some say the Greek power Hades built the first of Pluton's realms after he won dominion over the underworld from his brothers, conquering part of the realm of shadowy Erebus and building a palace at its darkest, most distant point, or claiming the kingdom of Nyx for his own. He may not have meant for his underworld to become part of the Gray Waste; it might have been constructed somewhere else, and only slowly drifted toward the plane of despair as its inhabitants lost all hope.

Others point not to the Underworld of Hades, but the mysterious graveyard of the nightmares as the seed from which Pluton grew. No one knows how ancient the nightmare horses, or their now-extinct lords, might be, but there is art depicting yugoloths riding them through the skies in the halls of Khin-Oin, in parts of the tower that long predate the god Hades's rise to power. The lords of the nightmare horses, or perhaps their persecutors, at some point decided that in death the nightmares would at last become free of the domination of others, and a realm was created separate from Oinos, perhaps under the protection of Nyx or under no authority but their own. As more and more nightmares came to add their skeletons to the pile over the eons, the realm around them slowly grew into a realm as potent as either of the Gray Wastes' other glooms. This, then, might be the real theme of Pluton: death leading to power. Certainly this would fit the god Hades' status as one of the young gods of Olympus using a newly-earned mastery over the dead to claim power that wasn't originally his own. Because this is the Gray Waste, the power is built on the bones of countless death, none of whom receive any benefits from it. Still, unlike Niflheim's poor sods, the inhabitants of Pluton tend to be greater than they were. Death has brought them more power, even if they had to give up their individuality to gain it. Even the dead of the Underworld have gained a kind of gruesome splendor in numbers distinct from the piteous, pathetic souls of Niflheim.

Pluton, like other parts of the Waste, is a realm of greed, but where the greed of Oinos is furtively hoarded in hidden vaults or ancient towers, in Pluton it is displayed ostentatiously, like the nouveau rich who have something to prove. Compared to its siblings it is a young plane, and it needs to show its power to the others in order to convince them of its value, despite its comparatively young age. The palace of Hades is a place of dark grandeur, and even the piles of nightmare bones or the city constructed from the still-suffering bodies of petitioners show a need to impress others with tacky magnificence. Piles of bones or cities of bodies may not be 'wealth' as mortals understand it, but in the Lower Planes they're as vulgar as gold, and just as valuable.

Cegilune, queen of hags, also dwells in Pluton. She may be the mother of all night hags, and Pluton may thus be the origin of that race, or she may have been born in Oinos, in the Region of Dreams, or elsewhere and followed the nightmares to ride on the power their bones were forming. She may be a daughter of Nyx, who claimed the primal darkness before the titans were born.

Because Pluton is a young layer, and an artificially created one, the signs of its manufacture are everywhere for those who know how to look. Explorers have noticed that much of the landscape is bound in rings of dark metal or bronze, as if it was deliberately forged.

The torments of Pluton are also artificial. While much of the despair of the other two glooms comes from the landscape itself, in Pluton elaborate punishments are constructed to compensate for the relative lack of native hazards: souls forced to push rocks eternally up hills, food and drink are eternally snatched away from the starving and dehydrated, and other such vulgar entertainments.

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Re: Adding Color to the Grey Wastes

I know there are occasion passing references to disease in the Grey Wastes, it always struck me as an afterthought.
No, it's the first layer where disease resides, since this is the layer of the Yugoloths who didn't migrate (whereas the 2nd and 3rd layer are ruled by powers of the underworld). As I think I mentioned earlier in this topic, the Yugoloths of the Gray Waste (such as the Oinoloth) represent the old way of Yugoloth thinking, that encompasses only pain, disease, and torture (hence the disease-- IIRC even the Oinoloth is somewhat depressed about all the festering sores on his body-- I mean the Oinoloth has a lot more pus and festering crap than what you'd normally see in a Yugoloth).
The Yugoloths who migrated to Gehenna represent the new way of Yugoloth thought-- secrecy, obsctructionism, betrayal, and cunning. They favor indirect methods of dealing with problem individuals, such as catching them in a landslide or having sex with them and giving them a fatal STD. With the exception of the Baernaloths, the Loths of the Gray Waste could be seen in a way as kicking and screaming against change.
Also, unlike the Gehennian Yugoloths (who get a sort of philosophical reward from torturing petitioners etc.), Gray Waste Yugoloths don't gain any sort of pleasure or reward from inflicting pain on others, and they're not even able to experience emotions (whereas the Gehennian Yugoloths can) The Gray Waste 'loths could be said to be victims of utter despair, that the old ways which they adhere to-- which their race has adhered to since the creation of the General of Gehenna himself-- have become obsolete-- and even the General of Gehenna himself-- the patriarch of the entire Yugoloth race-- has abandoned them.

I just had a thought. Perhaps the plane represents the end results of evil, where one is merely a burnt out shell of their former self, unfeeling, and empty
The canon is quite blatant that the Gray Waste represents the most undiluted evil of all-- cruel indifference and callousness. If we look at the Baernaloths, we see, to some degree, evil for pure evil's sake. THe baernaloths, as Planes of Conflict is quite clear, don't derive ANYTHING out of what they do-- they are incapable of feeling emotion, and all their scheming, obstructionism, deceit, and infliction of misery brings them no pleasure whatsoever-- no reward. They're just evil for the sake of evil, and they're so indifferent to the suffering they inflict, that they often don't even notice they are inflicting it.
Whereas the inhabitants on all other planes-- including the Yugoloths of Gehenna-- and hell, even the nighthags, commit evil with some goal in mind-- they derive something out of it, be it money, power, pleasure, fame, survival, freedom, etc.

and calling it the plane of sadism is not an exaggeration.
Uh, no, it's not a plane of sadism, it's a plane of callousness, of cold cruelty. Sadism denotes the infliction of misery for personal pleasure.

One of their chief abilities is to cause agony in those they encounter, then heal them, and then reopen the wounds in order to make them suffer again and again. This, then, is perhaps the core of the plane.
Yes, but I read the Baernaloths entry just earlier today, and it describes the Baernaloths themselves as unable to feel emotions, and deriving no reward for their scheming and infliction of misery-- they do it simply for evil's sake.

Where disease is how despair primarily manifests itself in Oinos, in Niflheim despair manifests as death, and this layer has more realms of the dead than any other.
Niflheim, at least Hel's part of it, also seems to personify want and poverty. Hel also taunts the hungry petitioners with poisoned food, but she doesn't do this out of any sadistic desire, and does not derive any pleasure out of inflicting such misery on petitioners. The petitioners are all depicted as wearing undyed, unbleached garments with patched up and present holes.

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Re: Adding Color to the Grey Wastes

Side note: I think there is a bit of a disparity in depictions of the Grey Wastes due to various authors trying to reconcile an area of ultimate evil with more traditional depictions of gods of death (who were often portrayed more as cold and unfeeling rather than diabolically evil per se).

ripvanwormer wrote:
The plane exists to create misery, and then to even take misery itself away, leaving barren husks behind.
My only problem with that is the relative speed with which the plane creates the husks. To me, it seems like there would be more poetic justice if this process drained souls at a slower pace to stretch out the anguish. I may have to consider changing the Wastes so that living visitors are affected and drained at the "standard" pace but that the souls truly assigned to the Wastes only become emotionally drained as the decades or centuries of futility and suffering crush them.

ripvanwormer wrote:
Disease is definitely a major theme of Oinos.
I agree and disagree with this. I agree that it is SUPPOSED to be and that its a good fit. I disagree in that I don't think much has been done with this except being told that it is a layer of disease. While I don't have the encyclopedic knowledge of Planescape as many of the posters on this site; I can't recall many authors doing much with the theme of disease here. I recall a site (from Hellbound?) where the bodies of battle were so densely packed together that the corpses were being piled together to make impromptu fortresses, etc. That site evoked images in my mind of a place festering with disease and foulness; but aside from that, I can't think of many other cases where they didn't break the "show; don't tell" rule of writing. Again, I'm not saying it's a bad fit. I just wish more people would actually do something with the theme.

ripvanwormer wrote:
Niflheim: ...Niflheim contained all possibilities, frozen and inert, forever sterile... its remaining potential frozen forever, sterile and meaningless. Niflheim is now what happens when possibility dies. For this reason it has drifted into the Gray Waste, bonding with Oinos, the first plane of evil, in mutual despair.
I like the idea of a (spiritually) abandoned plane drifting and attaching itself to the Wastes. I like the theme of abandonment for both this layer and for Hel (being the largely abandoned daughter of Loki).

I guess if were re-writing the canon material, I would probably have swapped the placement of Niflheim and Pluton as Hades' realm still seems to harbor themes of power and domination (at least it does in my mind). Whereas Niflheim seems to more "purely" embody the themes of despair. [I tend to think of the layers becoming more absolute in the overall theme the deeper one goes past the first layer - as opposed to the reverse scenario that you suggested above.]

ripvanwormer wrote:
The mysterious graveyard of the nightmares as the seed from which Pluton grew.
Is this your own creation? It's new to me but I love the idea of a graveyard of nightmares.
Is the implication that Hades had originally intended to lord over dreams (or perhaps just nightmares)? Did he fail (causing the layer to shift to the Wastes) because his gloomy nature crushed the dreams or did his inability to control dreams lead to his gloomy nature? Did Nyx plant the seeds of Hades future failure (as a "scorched earth" plan just before she was imprisoned in Carceri)? Very evocative, to me.

ripvanwormer wrote:
Pluton...is a realm of greed, but where the greed of Oinos is furtively hoarded in hidden vaults or ancient towers, in Pluton it is displayed ostentatiously, like the nouveau rich who have something to prove.
I always viewed Hades' (and his underlings') curse like an old joke on the Simpsons: Mr. Burns is at an auction and after placing yet another winning bid, he say to Smithers "I've got got countless riches and yet I still feel unfufilled...Maybe this next thing will do the trick." (heavily paraphased) To me, the point is that this form of wealth-hoarding is a misplaced attempt to fill a spiritual hole with possessions or power. The hoarder tends to pursue the item tenaciously and commits vile acts to obtain it; but once obtained, the item seems worhtless and gets cast aside onto the heap of other ruthlessly obtained lucre. In the case of Hades, I always thought of the "hole" as his command over a "useless" realm. (I recall one legend where Zeus, Poseidon and Hades played a game of chance to determine which of the almost equal brothers would rule which realm -sky/seas/underworld. Hades was the big loser and I always thought of him being bitter and unsatisfied about it)

Jem
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Re: Adding Color to the Grey Wastes

Palomides wrote:
ripvanwormer wrote:
The mysterious graveyard of the nightmares as the seed from which Pluton grew.
Is this your own creation? It's new to me but I love the idea of a graveyard of nightmares.

Nope, it's canon. Nightmares come to the Waste to die, and their bones add to an enormous pile. In fact, seen from afar, the pile seems to be taking on the shape of a skeletal horse itself, leading to speculation as to whether some day it will rise up and take a rider -- Corpus, perhaps, the city made out of bodies in the shape of a giant body.

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Re: Adding Color to the Grey Wastes

Side note: I think there is a bit of a disparity in depictions of the Grey Wastes due to various authors trying to reconcile an area of ultimate evil with more traditional depictions of gods of death (who were often portrayed more as cold and unfeeling rather than diabolically evil per se).
I didn't see much of a disparity in the Planescape books themselves.

I agree and disagree with this. I agree that it is SUPPOSED to be and that its a good fit. I disagree in that I don't think much has been done with this except being told that it is a layer of disease.
Actually, a LOT has been done with this. Just look at the nighthags (known to be carriers of many diseases including IIRC hag fever), and the Tower of the Oinoloth, whom himself personifies disease. I believe (could be wrong though) that the craters dotted across the land from the Blood War on Oinos have or could be compared to boil/pustule scars. Due to the incredible concentration of battles on Oinos (compared to most of the lower planar layers), the waters of the Styx on Oinos are particularly thick and rank with fiendish blood and decay.

Is this your own creation? It's new to me but I love the idea of a graveyard of nightmares.
The graveyard of nightmares is from the Canon. The idea that the layer was built around it I think is Rip's fanon.

Is the implication that Hades had originally intended to lord over dreams (or perhaps just nightmares)
No. In Greco-Roman mythology, the lord of dreams has always been the agathodaemon Hypnos (agathodaemons are the opposite of cacodemons, though technically Hypnos and his brother Thanatos are more neutral-- in the original mythology Thanatos is a neutral spirit wjho only personifies peaceful death-- in particular death in one's sleep, as opposed to Ker who personifies violent death.)
There are some other gods of sleep and dreams as well (Morpheus I think), but Hades' portfolio has NEVER involved dreams. After defeating the Titans, the three brothers (Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades) divided the land of the world between them. Zeus got the heavens, Poseidon got the seas and waters, and Hades got the earth and everything below it (including the underworld) Thus Hades has always been associated with darkness, the grave, caverns, and buried wealth.
The gods can essentially be split into four groups-- the Ouranioi, or gods of the sky, the gods of nature (e.g. wilderness, mountains, and agriculture) (Georgikoi and Nomoi), the Halioi, or gods of the waters, and the Cthonoi, or gods of the Underworld. Most of this info is easy to find on Theoi.com.

Looking on Theoi.com, the whole Protogenoi and Baernaloth thing would be a lot easier to encorporate into Planescape than I realized. It lists the generations of gods as follows:
1. Protogenoi (elemental-like personifications)
2. Nature Daimones and Nymphai
3. "body and mind affecting daimones" (Cacodemons and Agathodemons).
4. The actual gods
In D&D terms, #s 2 and 3 would translate as fey and outsiders-- both categories were created by the Protogenoi, who in D&D terms were created spontaneously from the birth of the Multiverse.
In other words, the Protogenoi created the first celestials and fiends, as well as probably the first ancestors of the fey, since those tend to be outsiders (or at least blur the line between fey and outsider). So my theory that Nyx could be a Baernaloth is likely on the mark, except that it's more likely she and some of the other Protogenoi created the Baernaloth (either directly or indirectly), while other Protogenoi created the Proteans.

Bear in mind that in the timeline I created, the Protogenoi are also responsible for the creation of the Outer Planes-- they're not responsible for anything remotely to the degree that it appears now, but they were responsible for placing the building blocks and winning the Outer Void from the Draedens (well, technically they didn't win-- the battle ended up in a draw and the Draeden decided to just go dormant and wait until the powers disappear.)
Eventually, the Protogenoi are deposed by the Titans and other pantheons.

Should be noted that the only planes the Protogenoi had a heavy influence over were the 5 that represent alignment at its purest-- Elysium, Mechanus, Limbo, Gray Waste, and the Outlands. Though Carceri and the Abyss's initial building blocks came as a result of the Draeden war (specifically, one of the Abyss layers is built around a sleeping Draeden, and Carceri is built around the slain/dormant/depowered Protogenos named Tartarus.)
The Ribcage, Tower of Khin-Oin, and other skeletal locations have zero to do with that war-- the Protogenoi are elemental beings and thus do not leave skeletal remains when slain, and the Draeden are boneless.

To me, the point is that this form of wealth-hoarding is a misplaced attempt to fill a spiritual hole with possessions or power. The hoarder tends to pursue the item tenaciously and commits vile acts to obtain it; but once obtained, the item seems worhtless and gets cast aside onto the heap of other ruthlessly obtained lucre.
That's an excellent insight, and I think you are, in fact, right on the mark here. The Plane of Gehenna better personifies the typical greed we are familiar with-- particularly the abandonment of one's own convictions and allies for such things *betrayal and cruel jokes is the primary theme there*, while on Hades it is the pursuit of greed to fill the emptiness and despair. Though I'm not sure the nighthags fit that theme (in fact they more closely mimic the theme of Gehenna save that they don't derive any pleasure out of making people suffer, and don't make people suffer just for the fun of it-- they always have a goal in mind)
I suppose they do fit the theme of the Gray Waste in one way though-- the race, as a whole, lacks a long-term or ultimate goal. The Tanar'ri want to wipe out the Baatezu, and the Baatezu want to wipe out the Tanar'ri. The Yugoloths want to purge evil with the impurities of law and chaos, and spread evil across the Great Wheel, so that law, chaos, and good are wiped out. The Gehreleths' goal is cryptic, but it seems that their ultimate goal is to wipe out the Yugoloths, free Carceri, and purge it of non-native outsiders. The Barghests would like to put the Yugoloths back in their place and become the undisputed rulers of Gehenna once again.
Yet the hags, as a whole, don't appear to have any one goal. They only care about amassing individual wealth and power, and unlike the other fiendish races, they don't seem to mind foreign elements on their plane (except when self preservation comes into play-- e.g. a powerful Paladin starts romping around). This could be seen as the race lacking purpose, in a way-- especially since the basic purpose of all outsiders and elementals is to act as the plane's immune system against foreign creatures, matter, alignments, and elements.

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