Abandon all religous morals, ye who enter here

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Swiftbow's picture
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There's also a line from God:
"I, your God, am a jealous god."

If he's a jealous god, then there must be some competition, eh? I think at least the Old Testament's proof is that the God therein is the big kahuna, and the others are just simply weaker than he is.

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'GOD' wrote:
Well, I get to thinking. I see a lot of religions being posted on planewalker (all the pantheons and whatnot) and I realized why Christianity has yet to be represented. Because it leaves no room for anything else.

Maybe they're just following the precedent set by TSR:

http://www.yamara.com/yamaraclassic/index.php?date=2005-05-30

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Soul-selling in the pages of Dragon? Yamara shows you how! But hang on. TSR had to adhere to some very strict ground rules. They had been struggling with vocal fundamentalists for more than a decade over this game of theirs, and they wanted to avoid any future confrontations. In this strip, merely our third installment, we had literally crossed a line. They couldn't print this. Not without a crucial edit. As long as it was clear that it was villanous behaviour, any religious faux pas, like ensuring one's eternal damnation, and demon summoning and things, these were fine. We really didn't have to worry about bringing up nigh-ultimate blasphemies, in the appropriate context. But that cross. That cross would have to go! See, by portraying Joe as an actual Christian good guy someone would take offense. Battling demon-worshipping sorceresses and advancing the cause of the Prince of Peace was just not something certain devout Christians wanted to take credit for. Maybe it was some kind of stereotype we touched on? Because our best friend in college was a born-again Christian who played the most bad@$$ anti-paladin character we've ever seen, and, y'know, he was cool with it. Empathetic to our confusion, the editors suggested we try some different cross. We settled on using the Maltese Cross as Joe's divine instrument of fantasy faith.

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I really like that TSR/WOTC has tried to keep Christianity/Judiasm etc etc out of the books. I feel like all it would do is create more stereotypes...and would force a complete overhaul of planar such and such's.

I mean, where would the Christian God live? Lawful good? Neutral Good? Who decides what that good is? blah blah blah Laughing out loud

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'princessbunny99' wrote:
I mean, where would the Christian God live? Lawful good? Neutral Good? Who decides what that good is? blah blah blah Laughing out loud

And yet nobody has a problem with (mostly-arbitrarily, in some cases) assigning Greek or Norse gods with an alignment.

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It's what I call the 'hot topic' decision - the decision comes down to an evaluation of how much trouble prublishing something is going to bring to you and yours from the folks who don't like or agree with you - and if you are going to be actually able to handle said trouble.

And yes, there is a gradient there - but there's no 'halfway point' between publishing and not publishing something so at some point you really do have to draw that line. It's not a matter of fairness/equality/ethics/etc - it's just a matter of practicality.

(In a simular fashion, I have to watch threads to make sure they don't endanger the community health. It's something we all do to some degree or another in most of our social interactions.)

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true. however, i think that at this point, there wouldn't be a significant uproar--or significant number of lost customers--if WotC put YHWH into the books. Jack Chick and his ilk don't hold much sway anymore, even in the current political trend towards conservatism. Judeo-Christianity and Islam are just more grist for the mythology mill.

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Just because Jack Chick and his band of incompetants doesn't hold sway doen't mean a publishing company can be too reckless. If WOTC were to publish articles relating to Judeo-Christianity, depending on the nature of the articles, they might precipitate the return of the Chick Brigade.

A hypothetical: Jack Chick's team is currently ineffectual and often ignored. They claim Dungeons and Dragons is out to subvert Christianity.

WOTC publishes controversial books about Christianity. Some Christians believe these books undermine their faith.

Jack Chick conveniently returns to remind people of his original method. People come to think of Jack Chick as at least slightly competant.

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then why hasn't In Nomine been Jack Chicked out of existence? heck, with the return of demons and devils, why hasn't D&D?

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I think the main trouble is that Christianity is monotheistic - one big god, believe in him or else - while Planescape is decidedly polytheistic - lots of gods, pick one or more to venerate, or maybe none at all, nobody's really going to care.

A bunch of different polytheistic deities can all play together. A monotheistic deity doesn't play with anyone else. So, where would we put YHWH? We can't really make him fit anywhere.

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'Bob the Efreet' wrote:
A monotheistic deity doesn't play with anyone else. So, where would we put YHWH?

Well, he could interact with fiends. Download the adventure "Rapture" from The Mimir Downloads page for a really good use of a monotheistic deity in Planescape.

He interacts with the aasimon who serve him, obviously, and they can interact with the PCs, question their place, rebel, fight aasimon serving other gods, or any number of interesting things.

He could also interact with other gods. Just because his worshippers aren't supposed to revere them doesn't mean he doesn't deal with them on occasion. The comic Testament from Vertigo has YHWH playing some sort of game with Baal, Astarte, and several other deities as the events of Genesis happen.

Alternatively, look at this storyline from the webcomic Pantheon, where Jesus tries to convince his father to make nice with Allah, who refuses to admit that Allah even exists. However, Jesus, who is of course also a Muslim prophet, has no problem interacting with that god, and goes up to Muslim heaven to have a heart to heart. It's actually a pretty good story.

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'Bob the Efreet' wrote:
I think the main trouble is that Christianity is monotheistic - one big god, believe in him or else - while Planescape is decidedly polytheistic - lots of gods, pick one or more to venerate, or maybe none at all, nobody's really going to care.

A bunch of different polytheistic deities can all play together. A monotheistic deity doesn't play with anyone else. So, where would we put YHWH? We can't really make him fit anywhere.


again, this is untrue. the Bible never says that YHWH is the only god, just that he's the biggest, baddest god. what deity or group of deities doesn't claim that? how many worshippers of the Greek pantheon really believe that Apollo couldn't whup Thor any day of the week?

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'motorfirebox' wrote:
again, this is untrue. the Bible never says that YHWH is the only god, just that he's the biggest, baddest god. what deity or group of deities doesn't claim that? how many worshippers of the Greek pantheon really believe that Apollo couldn't whup Thor any day of the week?

Isn't the claim that he's the only true god? My main point, I guess, is that I feel it would be damaging to the mythology to stuff YHWH in with a bunch of legitimate, powerful other gods.

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'Bob the Efreet' wrote:
Isn't the claim that he's the only true god?

It's debatable.

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My main point, I guess, is that I feel it would be damaging to the mythology

That's the charm of it. Lots of mythology gets damaged by throwing it all together in the same Great Wheel, tying everything to the power of belief, and adding in things like modrons and elementals. That's what makes Planescape fun.

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'ripvanwormer' wrote:
That's the charm of it. Lots of mythology gets damaged by throwing it all together in the same Great Wheel, tying everything to the power of belief, and adding in things like modrons and elementals. That's what makes Planescape fun.

Well, yes. But therein we find our problem - enough people get uppity over their religion being 'abused' or 'misused' that they'll cause an uproar about it. I haven't ever heard any pagans complaining about D&D's misrepresentations of, say, Eris. So although we're basically doing the same thing to different religions, some people insist on being offended over it, and those people will try to make our lives difficult because of such.

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There's really several issues going on here.

One is, would Christianity in Planescape be fun? This is what the *original* post was about, after all. ;^) The answer is entirely a matter of personal opinion, combined with the viewpoints of one's gaming group; one of the longest-lived Planescape sites on the web, pathguy's, is strongly Christian in its interpretation of Planescape, even to the point of offering optional rules that slant the setting toward LG Christian characters. Christ never appears onscreen, but the interpretation is clear to any reader. And -- assuming I knew what I was getting into when I joined the group -- I'm sure I could have fun with him GM'ing. Other people I know would be offended.

Which brings us to a second question, namely, is monotheism really doable in Planescape, or in an RPG at all? The answer to the latter question is certainly yes -- whole games have been written about the theme with varying degrees of reverence or irreverence, from a game whose name I cannot, alas, recall, about saving souls for Jesus, to the fantasy setting Banestorm from Steve Jackson Games, which uses real-world religions, to the positively flippant In Nomine, where the characters can play angels or demons (or pagan spirits, which are mechanically less powerful; or humans, which seem even less powerful but might not be). Is it doable in *your* Planescape? Same answer as the previous paragraph.

Now, the Urban Planescape Project is a little different, of course, and there's a thread over in the UPP forum about "Monotheism in UP," although it hasn't gotten a post for a while. Another take on religion in UP is in the same forum, a bit lower, under "Modern Gods."

A third question is, if you want to, *how* you do it. Does the monotheist god overshadow the lesser gods? Do they acknowledge him? Is he interventionist? Was he the Creator? Is there an Adversary? There are a lot of ways to do this, and you can pick a favored answer:

* direct worship of an Overpower via revealed Scripture, like Islam. "His" clerics' powers could be explained as arising from philosophical devotion, and "his" petitioners arrive on their appropriate alignment plane in no specific god's domain; highly noninterventionist, one might wonder whether the Overpower was paying attention at all. Alternatively, the Overpower is worshiped via the intercession of a Messiah, as in Christianity. The Messiah interacts with PCs more like traditional Planescape gods (i.e., he has clerics and a Domain), if a bit more aloof. (Or not; see first post in thread.) A Messiah who appeared in human form, died, resurrected himself, and thereafter ascended to Jovar (apparently *alive*), and who now grants spells and responds to Commune (although he can give no details on Jovar), would be a very Christ-like figure for a Planescape game.

* a dualistic system with a Supreme Being and an equally powerful Adversary; Ahura Mazda and Ahriman of the Zoroastrian mythos are in fact canonical, if I understand correctly, although I have no idea what their status is with relation to other gods. Their afterlives could be anywhere you choose, and their clerics would have a "real" god to worship. They could engage occasionally in displays of power that exceed even the other gods, explaining their status; the only reason Ahura Mazda wouldn't rule completely was that dealing with Ahriman took up so much of his resources.

* a branch of druidic pantotheism that at some point incorporated a notion of a personal Supreme Being -- the "clerics" would be druids, with the usual array of alignments.

* There are many others. You have options for monotheism that don't involve modern religions, options for using modern religions, and more. Jack Chick isn't gonna picket your house if you want to rewrite the pantheons with Jesus running a liquor shop in the Lower Ward. ;^)

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'Bob the Efreet' wrote:
'motorfirebox' wrote:
again, this is untrue. the Bible never says that YHWH is the only god, just that he's the biggest, baddest god. what deity or group of deities doesn't claim that? how many worshippers of the Greek pantheon really believe that Apollo couldn't whup Thor any day of the week?

Isn't the claim that he's the only true god? My main point, I guess, is that I feel it would be damaging to the mythology to stuff YHWH in with a bunch of legitimate, powerful other gods.

Nah. It'd just me4an the Athar are right. Eye-wink

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'Bob the Efreet' wrote:
Isn't the claim that he's the only true god? My main point, I guess, is that I feel it would be damaging to the mythology to stuff YHWH in with a bunch of legitimate, powerful other gods.
sure, of course it would be. it'd be just as damaging as, say, the representation of a cleric of Odin is to Asatru.

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'Bob the Efreet' wrote:
'Orendil' wrote:
But being a Religion and Philosophy major makes me have to to say something or else my head will hit the wall. My apologies if I've said too much.

The trouble here is that Planescape isn't true to any of the sources it draws from. It takes pieces from Greek, Norse, Egyptian mythologies (and surely others, but those are the only ones that come immediately to mind), and smooshes them together into a new, Planescapey thing. If we had Norse pantheon followers around here, they could probably tell us that we got their religion wrong, too - that's not the point. The point in Planescape isn't to get any of these religions right, but to draw inspiration from them and make something different and interesting out of it.

And we do, in fact. Namely me. Yes, it gets several things wrong.
1)The gods are not the Asgardians, they are the Aesir and the Vanir
2) the Giants (Jotuns and Thurses) powerful enough to be a threat to the gods
3) There are 9 worlds; Ysgard is a little too crowded. Ideally Hel should be an entire layer of the Wastes not just a realm (and Hella should be true neutral), Niflheim should be the Para-elemental Plane of Ice, Muspelheim should be the Plane of Fire, Vanaheim should probably be part of the Beastlands, Ljosalfheim should probably be Arboria with Frey having a realm their and is worshiped by humans and planar elves, Midgard is definately the Prime, Which would leave Asgard Jotunheim and Nidavellir in Ysgard which is not as bad.
4) The Alfar (singular: alf, which is the origin of elf) are actually male ancestor spirits. Female ancestral spirits are called Disr.
5) Evidence points to our prechristian ancestors actually seeing a person as possesing multiple souls simultaneously, but of different types. Upon death, these souls would meet different fates: one or two would go to Hel, one might go to the Hall of one's patron, one would become an alf or dis, one might haunt one's grave, another might attach itself to someone (probably living).
6) The D&D alignment system just doesn't work in regards to Heathen thought. When one tries to make it work, almost everything ends up as neutral.

Should I keep going? This should illustrate the point Bob was trying to make.

By the way, I believe in Yaweh's existence, I just don't like him much. There's no way in Hel he's an overpower.

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no real reason to make him an overpower. his big claim to fame is creating the world and humanity, which are items on quite a few pantheons' resumés. he does, according to his own mythology, beat the pants off of every other god in town, but that might just mean that he has an unusually high divine rank (or that his contemporaries are unusually weak).

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