Abandon all religous morals, ye who enter here

I protest. Followers of Anu can be of different alignments, and they all go to his realm when they die. Same for any other power. Alignment only factors in if you had no strong devotion to a deity.

Nah, it's not if the person believes, it's if their beliefs are actually correct.

A serial killer who believes he is doing the work of the god of pacifism and non-violence wouldn't join his deity . . .

If your beliefs AND actions match up with the deity, then it'd work.

Would a deity really have to accept every soul that worships him/her, even if it is being done in a way completely opposite from everything he/she stands for? I would think one would have to at least somewhat match up with the actual things the deity stands for. I could be completely wrong of course.

Redeemed, like a soda can for 5 cents?

Redemption? Maybe the fact that he wholely believed he was doing the work of the good aligned diety is a slightly redemable quality but the complete redemption of the soul that murdered others on his own accord with out the actual confirmation from god would probably be beyond redemption. though the bible states that god forgives you always... but then again that forgiveness is only available if one repents in ernest without the notion or intention of going out to repeat the murders. Which how many cerial killers you know that do that?

Then theres the whole problem of murderers who could actually have been sent by god to do the work that their titles impress. But God has every ablility to do that himself *with awesome style like fire from the heavens* or he'd send Michael the arch angel, one of the two angels named in the bible (gabriel the messanger being the other, messanger, as in not firey sword of god). So really there should be no mortal that carries out the culling of opposing enemies. infact it would be persecuters whom would be killed and persecuters only add to the messages of the bible. which we wont go into. In order to understand the bible completely we must venture to other books as well. For it was monarchs who chose what went in the bible and what didnt. there are several other books such as the life of adam and eve, the book of moses and a book containing more information on the life of the christ.

And i wouldn't blame Jesus for wanting the apocolypse to occure. we freakin killed him! but i agree with whom ever said it was against the christian belief sturcture but all in all that was a cool idea god. and your origianal draft of it would seem more agreeable then your later thoughts on it.

And since I've actually considered this already, here's what you would get putting the Archangels and Demon Princes in the Planescape setting:

Archangels:
Blandine, Archangel of Dreams: Elysium, Thalasia. Her Cathedral, the Tower of Dreams, is located on one of the Islands of the Blessed, but by her power it connects to the Ethereal Plane, wherein many of her servants are active.
Christopher, Archangel of Children: Elysium, Amoria (first layer; childlike love). His Cathedral is an enormous house where departed children can play happily.
David, Archangel of Stone: Earth. This is an Inner Plane, but simply too appropriate for him to go anywhere else. As a Superior he'd be capable of arranging the journey to his Cathedral there for like-minded souls. He'd probably have an outpost on Arcadia, near Mount Clangeddin, fortress and spiritual home of the dwarves, for when he needs to show up on the Upper Planes.
Dominic, Archangel of Judgment: Mount Celestia, Jovar (sixth layer, the heaven of judgment). He holds court in the Council Spires, where the Archangels meet when they discuss coordinated policy. Very well-informed bloods are aware that Dominic makes occasional visits to Belierin for unknown purposes.
Eli, Archangel of Creation: Eli was always a perambulant Archangel. His Cathedral was on the Positive Energy Plane as he was doing early work during the creation of the Universe, but he spent much time on the other Elemental Planes (even the Negative!), as well as the Prime Material, Mechanus, and Limbo, tinkering with the laws and material of Creation. With the advent of civilization he actually moved his Cathedral, an active artists' complex, to Arborea. Personally, he wanders the Prime Material. (In the In Nomine setting, Eli and Gabriel seem to be troubled and have been seen less in Heaven recently.)
Gabriel, Archangel of Fire: Fire, an Inner Plane, though she now spends much time on the Prime Material. Her Upper-Planar outpost would be on Muspelheim, the fiery second layer of Ysgard.
Janus, Archangel of the Wind: Air. Like David's, this is on an Inner Plane, but appropriate. His Upper-Planes outpost would probably be on Ysgard, reveling among the leaves of Yggdrasil.
Jean, Archangel of Lightning: Mount Celestia, on Mercuria, the heaven of learning. Not the Inner Plane of Lightning; though he has a small outpost there, his labs on Mechanus are more extensive. (Indeed, they are larger than his "Cathedral" on Mount Celestia, but an Archangel needs a Cathedral on the Upper Planes for political purposes.) Jean is an Archangel with a metaphorical Word referring to the spark of inspiration and genius. He is much concerned with science and artisanship, and is definitely lawful: in the medieval setting of Planescape, people are quite surprised to see him setting up a lab in Limbo and hearing his Servitors mutter things about "bifurcators" and "strange attractors"... ^_^
Jordi, Archangel of Animals: The Beastlands, of course. No doubts there. (In IN, his Cathedral is called the Savanna, but in truth has many environments; likewise, his domain doubtless touches Krigala, Brux, and Karasuthra equally.)
Khalid, Archangel of Faith: His Mosque would be on Mount Celestia, Solania. Yes, a Mosque; Khalid is a devout and practicing Muslim.
Laurence, Archangel of the Sword: the Cathedral of the Sword (an actual Cathedral; Laurence is Catholic) is doubtless on Arcadia, where you can't throw a rock without being arrested for hitting a paladin. As for Laurence himself, as Commander of the Host is most likely seen in the Council Spires more often.
Litheroy, Archangel of Revelation: Technically, his Abbey is on Mt. Celestia, Solania. However, he spends much of his time in places of great Upper-Planar mysteries, like Mithardir.
Marc, Archangel of Trade: his Cathedral of Commerce Park is on Bytopia, the layer of Dothion, which is dedicated to trade and craftsmanship.
Michael, Archangel of War: the Groves where his champions train is surely in Ysgard. The endless, righteous battle there would appeal to him, I think, and the ethos of the mead hall and the tale of glory puts him well in with the Norse. He doubtless has good relations with that pantheon. (Lesser "gods" appear in the In Nomine cosmology, but are more obviously dependent on humanity for belief. As manifestations tied to principles and concepts, the Archangels do not require worship and prefer to direct such faith to God; indeed, they would be shocked and dismayed at a cult springing up in their name. Their "clerics" are simply priests of God Himself who have focused on a specific principle.)
Novalis, Archangel of Flowers: Arborea, the slightly-chaotic layer where the plants and the land itself go with all-out passion.
Yves, Archangel of Destiny: Mount Celestia, Solania (fourth (middle) layer, the heaven of philosophers)
Zadkiel, Archangel of Protection: her Fortress is on Arcadia, like Laurence, though probably the second layer.

The Dead and Missing Archangels (In Nomine has extensive backstory about some of these):

Oannes, Archangel of the Waters: Water, of course (with an outpost in Ossa, the watery second layer of Arborea). (Oannes was killed by the Demon Prince Belial.)
Raphael, Archangel of Knowledge: like Jean, Raphael's study halls were on Mt. Celestia in Mercuria, the heaven of learning. She also saw much traffic to and from Quietude and the City of the Star on Elysium, and the Greek thinkers from Arborea.
Uriel, Archangel of Purity: While Uriel spent much time on Mt. Celestia when he was commanding the Host, his fortress Cathedral was in Nemausus, the third layer of Arcadia. He was called to Chronias after attempting the Purity Crusade (which is quite as intolerant as it sounds) and has not been seen since. A very few bashers know something's up with Nemausus these days....

Whether you use additional gods and devils beyond the Archangels and Demon Princes is a matter of flavor, of course -- in In Nomine, such things exist but are of an order of magnitude lesser in power, which is appropriate if you want to make Planescape monotheistic. Demon-gods are suitable for carrying on a Blood War, of course; Demon Princes squabble among themselves but primarily concern themselves with the War with Heaven.

Home planes of the Demon Princes:

Alaemon, Demon Prince of Secrets: his Principality is on Maladomini, the 7th layer of Baator, in Grenpoli -- the city of intrigue and secrets.
Andrealphus, Demon Prince of Lust: he rules a few layers in the Abyss (where he's friends with a lot of succubi).
Asmodeus, Demon Prince of the Game: Hell's internal-security chief and master of intrigue likewise sites his operations in Grenpoli.
Baal, Demon Prince of the War and Commander of the Horde: His Principality is on Avernus, the 1st layer of Baator, but his troops drill on the 1st layer of Acheron in the endless battles there, as well as involving themselves in the Blood War (if there is one) on Gehenna and the Gray Waste.
Beleth, Demon Princess of Nightmares: the Tower of Nightmares is on Pandemonium near the Harmonica, with the same connection as Blandine's to the Ethereal.
Belial, Demon Prince of Fire: Fire (and, oh, the battles with the Gabrielites in the intervening territory there). His Lower-Planar outpost is on the first, hottest layer of Gehenna.
Fleurity, Demon Prince of Drugs: his floating caravan rides the Styx across the Lower Planes.
Haagenti, Demon Prince of Gluttony: A layer of the Abyss with plenty to eat, which he is nevertheless slowly consuming. He moves to another whenever he finishes off one. Of course, if the Abyss' layers really are infinite, he'll never run out... right?
Kobal, Demon Prince of Dark Humor: Pandemonium, 1st layer. There certainly is a lot of laughter in his Principality... of one kind or another. Rumor has it he can hear anything shouted from Howler's Crag.
Kronos, Demon Prince of Fate: the embodiment of entropy spends most of his time on the Negative Energy Plane, with his true Principality, the Archives, in easy reach of authorized access on the 8th layer of Baator.
Lilith, *Human* Princess of Freedom: Technically, her Principality is a free town on the Plain of Infinite Portals, the 1st layer of the Abyss ("easy access to everywhere... below"). Truthfully, she spends far more of her time on the Outlands and the Prime Material. She also spends time in Limbo, the plane of ultimate freedom. (The first traitor was given enormous power from her deal with Hell, but remains human, if unaging. Very quiet rumor suggests that Lilith can show up in Sigil whenever she cares to, unlike even the Archangels and other Demon Princes!)
Malphas, Demon Prince of Factions: His Principality sits in the first layer of Carceri, where he has almost open ties to the Revolutionary League. He also has a *third* competing presence in Grenpoli.
Mammon, Demon Prince of Greed: the Gray Waste, Pluton, where he has a vault close to Hades and the Glitterhell (if these exist). He also bought out Minauros the Sinking (in the 3rd layer of Baator) millenia ago. (Maybe he thinks it's a better deal than it looks?) The local pit fiend Mammon of similar name, these days, smells weakness in his Luciferian counterpart....
Nybbas, Demon Prince of the Media: Most likely the Slick Prince does not exist in this medieval setting. If he does, he's probably Hell's Propagandist, a smooth-working recruiter and spin doctor. Nybbas would find Dis to be a great customer base; his personally-owned souls can sit drooling in the suburbs outside. (In a setting that allows Nybbas some modern trappings, Hell's Propagandist is well-known to want mindshare in Sigil, but he hasn't gotten it yet. He's also spoken in the past about turning the Spire into the multiverse' biggest broadcast equipment -- somehow.)
Saminga, Demon Prince of Death: The Grey Waste, of course -- Oinos is to his liking. He's openly aggressive against the other death gods should they exist, and it's only the small number of souls he can muster that has prevented outright victory.
Valefor, Demon Prince of Theft: Carceri! It amuses him mightily to base his operations from the universe's biggest jail cell, from which he can can come and go as he pleases.
Vapula, Demon Prince of Technology: Third layer of Acheron, the junkpile of the Universe (with easy access to Mechanus). In a medieval setting, the Prince of Technology concerns himself more with clockwork, alchemy and enchantment than computers and quantum mechanics, naturally.

The Dead & Missing:

Gebbeleth, former Demon Prince of Secrets: The Prince of Secrets had his operations in Grenpoli, where Alaemon has now taken over. He died under, characteristically, mysterious circumstances.
Makatiel, Demon Prince of Disease: Oinos -- he's actually *responsible* for several of the diseases running around that filthy layer. He died in one of the few Heaven-Hell joint projects after he discovered diseases that could affect celestials.
Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion: previously a layer of the Abyss. Smart-aleck commenters suggest that the layer, having been eaten whole by Haagenti, now represents Oblivion perfectly.
Meserach, Demon Prince of Sloth: another layer of the Abyss. Haagenti didn't bother eating this layer in its entirety, just everything in it; it's now an infinite void.
Vephar, Demon Prince of the Oceans: his Principality was in Stygia, the ocean layer of Baator fed by Styx.

And:

Lucifer: Most people assume he sits in the lowest layer of Baator. That's usually where demons are summoned to meet him; however, those summons can also bring demons to random unpopulated spots in Pluton of the Gray Waste, or through a portal to a layer of the Abyss with no known relative numbering. However, authorized demons never give reports on the results of these trips, and unauthorized demons are either wise enough to shut up, or dead.

GOD, THIS IS INCREDIBLY COOOOOOL! GONNA USE IT IN MY RPG I'M DOING! THANKS! IT'S TOTALLY GREAT! it's got a sense of humor, but it gives sense, and it's great! and it's got style!...=)
thank you a lot, THANK YOU A LOT!

I'll point out that Jesus is a part of God, being one of the Trinity. You know, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. One God, three 'people'.

Okay. First off, I'd like to say. Hilarious idea. I might use it sometime (and I'm what my friends have labeled a "fundamentalist"). Why would I do that? Because it's funny. And because anybody who takes it seriously either doesn't understand planescape or doesn't understand Christianity. Which is okay, as long as they ask questions.

First off. Are we seriously trying to cram Judeo-Christian cosmology into a pagan (of if you prefer: pre-Christian) inspired cosmology? It won't fit. The Hebrew conception of God is a being that is the source of all.....That's right, all. How? He "said" it was there, so it was there. No diety, hell, no power in all of the Outer Planes is like the Hebrew God Adonai. The closes thing to it is the Athar's belief in a one God, but even then that's closer to the conception Anaxagoras of the Greeks had of God then the Hebrews did.

Many philosophers and theologians (Monotheistic and otherwise) have commented that the Hebrew concept of God is so foreign to the rest of the world that it had to take a madman to think it up. The Hebrew "Gan-Eden"(Heaven, Paradise) isn't an upper-plane. It's concept doesn't even come close to the western concept of "dimension."

In the Christian mindset, the Upper Planes wouldn't be heaven but instead would be Purgatory. The closes thing to the idea of heaven I can think of on the top of my head is Chronias, but even then that's still too restrictive and enclosed of a concept.

Planescape, on the other hand, is a very pagan (or, like I said, if you prefer, Pre-Christian) inspired idea of reality. Each diety has a face and has their own realms and are individuals, interacting with eachother. And the dieties are limited in their power (can't enter Sigil, for instance), they stand on different places of alignment as well, also very pagan.

Now as for Jesus's divinity (which is vastly different than the DnD concept of divinity). What is generally considered Christian belief of Jesus's divinity is that which is stated in the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds, which state that Jesus was fully man, fully God, Son of God, and one with the Father and the Holy Spirit while being distinct as well. Is this comprehendible? Of course not. But it is logical to the Christians. The sects who have disagreed have been marked heretics by all Christian denominations (yes, this includes the Mormons).

Now, there are conceptions of Jesus outside Christianity that can be used. And if you don't want to follow the rules of Christian theology, fine. Be my guest. I doubt you could and still have Jesus anywhere in the Outer Planes. Have fun with it. Offend me. Just realize Christianity and Planescape don't fit as far as cosmology goes.

Like I said, I'm not offended. I'm just caffeinated, hence the long rant. I think it's funny. But being a Religion and Philosophy major makes me have to to say something or else my head will hit the wall. My apologies if I've said too much.

That madman was Plato, though. The ancient Hebrew concept of God isn't foreign at all - it's virtually identical to many other gods found in the area at the time. Marduk parted the waters above from the waters below. Ptah created the world with the power of his voice alone. It wasn't until the Pagan Hellenistic elements combined with it that we got our modern monotheism with its notions of Heavens and Hells and omnipotent, unpersonified Deity.

But there are similar ideas - of an omnipotent omnipresent God - in Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, even native African and American religions.

If you interpret YHWH as one tribal god among many - perhaps even just another name for the Canaanite god El, who he closely resembles and undoubtedly derived from at least in part - but his followers perhaps (or perhaps not) make grander claims than most, then there's no real problem fitting him into Planescape as just another power.

Or, if you like, you can use him as the ruler of the archons, the progenitor of Good, or as the mysterious Great Unknown or the Source, the master of all the overpowers or the creator of all the planes. All those ideas fit into Planescape just as well.

Neither did Judaism. Zoroastrianism and ancient Egypt did it long before.

Fair enough.

That's very much a Hindu concept, and definitely fits with Gnostic Christianity. It sounds like Plato's metaphor of the cave. It matches certain Zoroastrian beliefs, which I understand seperated Minu or intelligence from Giti the world we perceive.

And, of course, it fits very well with various Planescape factions, especially the Dustmen, Athar, Believers of the Source, and Sign of One. So it meshes with Planescape very well.

It's not originally a Jewish concept; the God described in the J-passages of the Tanakh is very much a creature of this world, physically walking in the earthly garden, physically wrestling with Jacob.

The only afterlife found in the Tanakh proper is Sheol, which is indistinguishable (except for lack of underworld deities) from the Greek Hades or the Sumerian Irkalla. It could fit naturally in the Gray Waste with Hel, Annwn, and Toril's Fugue Plain.

It doesn't include the Jehovah's Witnesses, for one, who are very Arianist in their views.

The point is, they're Christians, and they don't see themselves as heretics.

Whether ornot they see themselves as heretics doesn't change cthe reality that they are.

Okay, okay! "Heretic" is a fine word to throw about, but people are gonna disagree on the matter, hmm? Let's stick to the more relevant questions for this Planescape forum:

1) Should the Abrahamic religions -- Judaism, Christianity, and Islam -- be included in a modern-style Planescape setting?

There's a lot of interesting gaming that can be done this way, but it usually takes a focused vision of how the real-world elements are to be abstracted to the fantasy setting. In Nomine and the GURPS Banestorm setting both do well with this. For a group project, though, I definitely suggest that in lieu of real-world monotheism we introduce a fictional monotheistic religion.

2) Then, how?

I think such a religion should be capable of interacting with the traditional fantasy pantheons without disturbing their existence; both religions' theology should be able to survive the apparent activity of lesser "gods" and devils in the setting. The Great Unknown and the Source are certainly candidates for this monotheist deity, but we are considering a personal God. This would require, I propose, a messiah, someone who claimed to have been an incarnation of the Creator, who lived and died in a sufficiently inspiring manner to leave a messianic religion after him.

Thoughts?

The tall figure stood in front of the crowd. My people, he thought.

"My people!" he cried. The assembled multitude cheered.

"Many years ago, I was struck down. I traveled, as a shadow, through the land of the dead. I learned many things. I saw the face of the Creator, and heard from his own lips I heard his terrible Name. Finally, by the greatest of miracles, I returned, to teach, to witness!"

The cheers grew deafening, but - more and more - within them could be heard a million mouths chanting a word: the name of their prophet. Their messiah, who knew the Name of the Creator, and with it would uncreate the false gods.

Tenebrous, chanted the crowd. Tenebrous, Tenebrous, Tenebrous.

Hey, another idea, which might go well in a modern setting: Gnosticism in the Jungian mold, based on the worship of Abraxas. The worship of this all-god, supposedly containing both all things at once, including good and evil, might have been an offshoot of druidism. A charismatic druid (historically, Basilides was the philosopher who did so) breaks with his fellows and declares that he follows, as do all druids, the god Abraxas. Rejected at first, of course,

Abraxianism could make a really interesting monotheist religion for Planescape. Gnosticism already includes the idea of multiple, ascending heavens and bunches of lesser gods, emanations of the true Godhead. It contains magical thought, being associated with all manner of alchemy and numerology -- the name Abraxas supposedly contained the number 365, and is the root of the magic word abracadabra. It has definite moral teachings, the core of which is rejecting the material world in favor of the spiritual. This leads to, for example, denigrating wealth and greed (Eschew Materials and Vow of Poverty great feats for these guys!), and valuing learning, spirituality, and balance.

This tradition (hmm... Gnosticism? Abraxianism? Basilideanism?) would get away from forest rituals and moves into libraries, bringing it in to contact with town populations. The clerics would definitely be a bit different from their druidic roots -- perhaps enough to justify designing a new class?

There's a bunch of material with a suitably fantastic flavor to use as source material building up this monotheist religion:

http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/a/abraxas.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraxas http://www.gnosis.org/library/7Sermons.htm

Or what if this happens during the events of Dead Gods, before Orcus' resurrection?

American Gods has something similar happen with gods, and it's a great book, and a handy influence on how gods could interact with the modern world or just the world in general...

Gods follow humanity, so if some still believed in Tenebrous after Orcus' revival, then Tenebrous would have 'split' into a new being...

That might work really well in both the PS3.5 and UP settings. (I ever get a chance to do UP in full, I'm probably using American Gods and Neverwhere as major influences/ things to steal ideas from)

i'd like to point out that this is actually a misconception. there's nothing in the Bible that says that YHWH is the only god--just that he's the only true god, which is a conceit that the focus of any monotheistic takes for granted. the Bible doesn't even say that YHWH is the only source of supernatural power--the Witch of Endor summoned up the ghost of the prophet Samuel at Saul's behest; Pharaoh's wizards turned their staves into snakes; even the prophets of Baal acted like they fully expected their god to light a fire under their sacrifice at Mt. Carmel.