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Aasimon vs. Molydeus? Help!

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Wed, 2008-12-31 16:59
#1
Center of All
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Aasimon vs. Molydeus? Help!

I'm working on some story stuff and I'm a little stumped.  I have a molydeus involved and I want the molydeus to have a showdown with a celestial, preferably an aasimon.  However, I'm trying to figure out from a flavor perspective what aasimon would be best.  I want the molydeus to stand a reasonable chance, even though aasimon in general are typically more powerful than any single fiend.

Would a movanic or monadic deva, then, be a good choice?  I'm trying to compare the devas to the molydeus entry but I really can't get a good grasp of the level of power each deva has compared to a molydeus. 

I'd like to base this off of flavor more than anything, but I'd like to be somewhat accurate in terms of what things are "supposed" to be like.  I want the aasimon to be decidedly stronger than the molydeus, but not overwhelmingly so.  In other words, a molydeus with the right cunning and a bit of luck and good circumstance should be able to take this aasimon down.

So, please help!

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Wed, 2008-12-31 18:55
#2
Azriael
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Well the movanic or monadic

Well the movanic or monadic devas take care of the prime and elemental planes respectively so I'd go by that. If it's for the outer planes use an Astral deva and let a few class levels balance it out.

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Wed, 2008-12-31 20:19
(Reply to #2) #3
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Azriael wrote:Well the

Azriael wrote:
Well the movanic or monadic devas take care of the prime and elemental planes respectively so I'd go by that. If it's for the outer planes use an Astral deva and let a few class levels balance it out.

 Well, that's the thing.  I'm not looking for class levels, just for the overall flavor power level.  

For example, a Solar is considerably more powerful than a Balor.  Even without stats, that can be said with confidence.  Solars are supposed to be akin to deities, at least according to Planescape.  So what is the relative comparison between the deva and molydeus?  I know the devas rank somewhere below the Planetar, but I am having difficulty figuring out how low, and where in comparison to a balor, pit fiend, or molydeus.

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Thu, 2009-01-01 13:24
#4
Idran
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Flavor power level is

Flavor power level is mechanical power level.  Otherwise things would just be silly when mechanics became involved in a game.  Whichever one mechanically is close to a molydeus in power, is close to a molydeus in power according to Planescape flavor, so if you don't want to give something class levels to balance it out based on which one would be appropriate for the area, choose whichever one is closest to a molydeus in power and figure out an explanation for why they're there if it's inappropriate.

Thu, 2009-01-01 13:52
(Reply to #4) #5
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Idran wrote:choose

Idran wrote:
choose whichever one is closest to a molydeus in power and figure out an explanation for why they're there if it's inappropriate.

This is the exact question I'm trying to pin down, though.  Which one is in the realm of what I want?

Basically, what I'm looking for is this.

Solars are on a power level similar to deities.  Way too much for what I want.

Planetars are the next step down.  Also too powerful.

I'm assuming astral devas are next.  I honestly don't know what chance the average molydeus would stand against an astral deva.

Where do the others fall in, and where does that fall in relation to a molydeus?  I'm not looking for stats or mechanics or "class levels."  The latter, especially, is irrelevant.  There is a basic expectancy for each specific type of exemplar.  Where do these averages coincide?

I suppose I may just have to arbitrarily pick one using my best judgment and run with it. 

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Thu, 2009-01-01 16:08
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Idran
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I don't think you're

I don't think you're understanding this.  The basic expectency is exactly how powerful it is mechanically.  If it wasn't, then it would have different mechanics.  There's no reason to think the power level in terms of flavor is any different than the power level in terms of mechanics, because that would mean that either combat would regularly resolve itself in a way that doesn't fit flavor, or you would be regularly misdescribing the results of combat so that they fit the flavor version.

While there is a heirarchy of power in the exemplar races, it is literally impossible to compare members of these heirarchies across races if you aren't using their mechanical power levels at all.  And if you did just pick one arbitrarily, then when it came down to actually using that creature in the game, the results of any combat it got involved in very well might not reflect how you wished to proceed.  You might end up choosing a creature that would end up stomping over a molydeus in a couple rounds, or that would get similarly stomped itself.

 You also misunderstood what Azriael meant by class levels, by the way.  He was saying to choose a creature that fit the area, and add class levels to it if it was less powerful than you needed.  As in advance the celestial if necessary mechanically.

Maybe there's just a basic level of miscommunication here.  Can you explain why mechanics are irrelevant in figuring out how powerful a creature is in your situation?  Because knowing how powerful something is is exactly the reason there are mechanics in the first place.  That is quite literally why there is anything besides flavor, because mechanics are there to judge combat and other conflicts in a fair and nonarbitrary fashion.  With how you're describing your problem right now, you are basically asking "how can I remove a nail from this wall with a wrench?", and not accepting that it would be better to use a hammer.  But if you have a good reason why you need to use that wrench, then tell us and we can see what we can do with that toolbox.

Thu, 2009-01-01 16:26
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Idran wrote: Maybe there's

Idran wrote:

Maybe there's just a basic level of miscommunication here. 

This is exactly it, along with the fact that nobody seems terribly interested in actually answering the question.  I understand what you are saying just fine, it's you guys that don't seem to get what I'm saying.  Maybe I am just not explaining myself well.

All I am looking for is a simple answer to a rather simple question.  I'm not looking for an "add class levels" kind of thing.  I just want a general frame of reference that I'm having trouble establishing from the 2e compendium.  That's all.  I'm considering the mechanics, so I don't need a multi-page dissertation on how important they are.  

The only thing I'm asking for is someone that understands the concept or the 2e stuff better than I do to give me a general comparison of averages.

I don't think a single person has understood that's what I'm trying to get at.   Azriael said class levels, but the actual answer to the question wasn't the kind of answer I was looking for.  I'm not looking for who-goes-where, I just want to an idea and a reference point.  And you've railed on me about mechanics and stuff now.  I'm just not sure why this is such a complicated question for people.

Furthermore, as I've stated, this is for a story project, not a game.  Perhaps I also did not make this clear enough (looking back, I thought it was self-evident but I also didn't emphasize the point too much).  So I'm trying to get the basic comparison with a conceptual standpoint as the main focus.  Mechanics become secondary ultimately because the entire delivery is mechanics-free.  Weighing the matter based on mechanics is fine, but class levels ultimately mean nothing to me in this context.  I'm looking at the average fiend and average celestial of each type.

I'm sorry if I sound snippy in this post, but I'm kind of frustrated.  I'm asking what I thought to be a simple question and instead I'm getting a whole gamut of other things.  I apologize, too, if I didn't make my question clear enough to begin with.

All I really want to know is: What sort(s) of aasimon would a molydeus give a good fight to before the molydeus gets its butt whipped?

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Thu, 2009-01-01 16:48
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Okay, that makes a lot more

Okay, that makes a lot more sense, then.  Sorry, I wasn't trying to rail on you, I was just misunderstanding what you were wanting to do by a wide margin.  I missed that you said this was for a story rather than for a game, that's my fault.

Anyway, honestly, I'd say a planetar would be the best choice for that, since molydeus are pretty far up there.  They've got to be in order to keep the other tanar'ri in line, after all.  And even a planetar might be a struggle.  Solar would definitely be overpowered, though, so planetar would probably be your best bet.

Again, sorry for being so much trouble here, I should have read your post more closely, and actually answered your question before getting into all that in the first place.  My bad there.

Thu, 2009-01-01 17:17
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Idran wrote: Okay, that

Idran wrote:

Okay, that makes a lot more sense, then.  Sorry, I wasn't trying to rail on you, I was just misunderstanding what you were wanting to do by a wide margin.  I missed that you said this was for a story rather than for a game, that's my fault.

Anyway, honestly, I'd say a planetar would be the best choice for that, since molydeus are pretty far up there.  They've got to be in order to keep the other tanar'ri in line, after all.  And even a planetar might be a struggle.  Solar would definitely be overpowered, though, so planetar would probably be your best bet.

Again, sorry for being so much trouble here, I should have read your post more closely, and actually answered your question before getting into all that in the first place.  My bad there.

Thank you, and sorry for kind of unloading up there.  I realize looking back over my post I was kind of vague about what I wanted, so I can understand where confusion came from.  Then I got frustrated and kind of snapped.  I really apologize.

So you think a planetar would work, huh?  Hmm, if so, I have estimated things rather wrongly.  Not that I have anything against planetars, I just thought they were a lot more powerful than your estimate suggests.

As I understand it, molydei are essentially right below balors on the tanar'ri scale, which makes them a good match for the higher ranks of archons/guardinals/eladrin.  Aasimon, by default, tend to be equal to or greater than the highest echelon of any "typical" exemplar (where "typical" means anything in the Monster Manuals that doesn't have a unique name).  So it's hard for me to judge their scale because they don't automatically fit in a similar context to the other hierarchies.  That and I never played 2e enough to really understand the already-vague mechanics, so the power curve isn't as immediately obvious.  I estimated low with the lesser devas just to make sure I wasn't going way overboard.  

Hmm, a planetar.  Thank you for the idea!

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