A story to tell and a story to hear.

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Enadam's picture
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A story to tell and a story to hear.

Strange topic perhaps, but it depicts my situation quite good. First, the story to tell.

I've always been a gamer, starting out when I was four years old running around screaming Mario and whatnot. I grew, and my interest for games did also. I loved adventures, especially Zelda for SNES. Then I got my first PC, somewhere around 97', just the time when PC-games were the greatest. You all can probably see the connection right away. Fallout, Diablo, Hexplore, Baldurs Gate, Planescape Torment, Grim Fandango, Starcraft, Commandos and Half Life. A great time for PC-gaming, but an also greater one for computer RPGs.

This was when I was 10 years old, I had no idea whatsoever there was something called Dungeons and Dragons, but through all the books I read, all the movies I saw, the games I played I got the inspiration to create something myself. What I did was creating an RPG, which had at the start no real rules but was more like an extension to the "stick fighting" you had being a kid. But it evolved, and so did my interest for RPGs.

It's strange how much of my life I've spent on roleplaying with friends, basically everyday for a period of 4 years, without to this day ever been able to know what Dungeons and Dragons really is. What happened was that roleplaying exploded at my school, but everyone made their own rpgs with own rules! My biggest RPG which took most of those playing years was called "seventh god" and basically sums up the fact that I mixed all kinds of inspirations when creating a world that wasn't at all created but was a world that continuosly expanded and mixed axes with bazookas with magic and star wars.

There was of course a store in town with the players handbooks, which I understood was something similar to one of my favourite games, Baldurs Gate because I saw the design and probably also read something about it. But those books were soooo many, and each one costed about 40-50$ and since we figured that they looked boring (had too much rules) and we had our own RPGs, why bother? So to this day I feel disencouraged when seeing all those books and thinking "this shits been going on for almost 30 years, there is not enough time left in my life to mount up to all that I've missed!"

A year ago I finished Planescape Torment, which is basically the best RPG I have ever played. And today, I entered the name on wikipedia, and a whole new world opened up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planescape_Torment

There's just so much to explore! I've always known that Faerun is something that goes through everything from Icewind and Baldurs to old classics like Bards Tale and Pool of Radiance (wild guesses Sticking out tongue) but wow, wikipedia has just so much links and information that my head explodes! Especially interesting seems the planescape universe, since I loved the game so much. But basically what I want is a "dungeons and dragons history review for dummies". Because when I say that I have no clue what yer yappin bout, I mean it. Smiling

So, if anyone wishes to reminisce the past and at the same time giving me info about this whole roleplaying world of planescapes, faerun, drizzts, lady of pains, kobolts, elves then you can do so here.

I know that this is pretty good stuff
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Dungeons_%26_Dragons
but still, I just feel so confused and that is the same reason why I never got into this 4 years ago. I was lonely and had no-one to push me. Today I won't be able to roleplay as I did before, and doing so through mirc or some other chat isn't something that I find funny, I just want to get a grip of the whole concept, history and hear perhaps famous stories through all these years. Like planescape, that existed before the game did, and baldurs gate probably also existed before 98' right? Neverwinter also, I assume.
Eye-wink

Did R.A Salvatore make up Drizzt, and has he made other famous personalites as Elminster? Is Elminster even famous or do I only think so because he could not be killed in BG? Sticking out tongue
Oh, there's just so much! Who made up the drows, that wasn't Tolkien right?

Heard that temple of elemental evil (a computer game) also is a "famous" pen and paper rpg. Are there any famous names, and where could these specific games find their audience, was there certain books filled with these kinds of things or was it perhaps through dragons or what that magazined name is?

I'm confused, I know. Excited too Smiling

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Re: A story to tell and a story to hear.

Nothing I say should be taken as definitive -- you'll have to wait for the better historians to come along -- but first, welcome to our humble abode Smiling, and second...

"Enadam" wrote:
A year ago I finished Planescape Torment, which is basically the best RPG I have ever played. And today, I entered the name on wikipedia, and a whole new world opened up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planescape_Torment

I've been gaming since the mid-80s and I'd say that PS:T is probably the best game ever made. Certainly it's up in the top three or five of my private pantheon.

Quote:
these years. Like planescape, that existed before the game did, and baldurs gate probably also existed before 98' right? Neverwinter also, I assume.

Yes, yes and I'm not actually sure how much of NWN is new and how much was adopted from previous settings.

Quote:
Did R.A Salvatore make up Drizzt, and has he made other famous personalites as Elminster? Is Elminster even famous or do I only think so because he could not be killed in BG?

Salvatore created Drizzt in the 1980s for the novel The Crystal Shard; Ed Greenwood created Elminster in the 1970s for the original Forgotten Realms campaign as his... um... doppelganger? avatar? Mary Sue? take your pick ;); yes, Elminster's dead famous, curse him; and he's pretty much unkillable, period (see "Elminster in Hell" or better yet, don't).

Quote:
Oh, there's just so much! Who made up the drows, that wasn't Tolkien right?

Nope. The closest Tolkien ever came to "evil elves" was the story in the Silmarillion, adopted by the movies, that orcs are elves that have been corrupted by Morgoth. I don't know who gets the credit for drow; I think it was Gary Gygax himself but I have to confess I don't know enough about the early history of D&D to say.

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Re: A story to tell and a story to hear.

"Enadam" wrote:
Then I got my first PC, somewhere around 97', just the time when PC-games were the greatest. You all can probably see the connection right away. Fallout, Diablo, Hexplore, Baldurs Gate, Planescape Torment, Grim Fandango, Starcraft, Commandos and Half Life. A great time for PC-gaming, but an also greater one for computer RPGs.
That was a great era for gaming, wasn't it? I was also big into it around then, although I was a bit more than 10 at the time. I'm not sure that is a good thing or a bad thing... 23 year old nerd spending all his time playing PC games. Smiling

"Enadam" wrote:
.. But those books were soooo many, and each one costed about 40-50$ and since we figured that they looked boring (had too much rules) and we had our own RPGs, why bother? So to this day I feel disencouraged when seeing all those books and thinking "this shits been going on for almost 30 years, there is not enough time left in my life to mount up to all that I've missed!"
A brave and expensive goal, but one many of us will cheer on. It is quite expensive. I'm not nearly as bad as many or most people out there and I've got way too much "junk" (meant in the most endearing way possible).

"Enadam" wrote:
A year ago I finished Planescape Torment, which is basically the best RPG I have ever played.
About two years ago I played it for the 3rd or 4th time. I didn't finish it that time because I got hooked into Planewalker. That game is awesome. There are several other fanatics on the forums. There are a few threads as well as some content over on the main site geared around Torment.

"Enadam" wrote:
But basically what I want is a "dungeons and dragons history review for dummies". Because when I say that I have no clue what yer yappin bout, I mean it. Smiling
That's like asking for "nuclear physics for dummies"... there's too much! As you said, there have been 30+ years of this stuff! The history is so rich and so deep. It was relatively "simple" back in the early days. Then people started to tinker during 2nd Ed. and we got all sorts of cool content and ideas. That was also when it started to splinter into the multitude of campaign settings (not in this order)... Al Quadim, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, and many more, including our beloved Planescape. I like to think I know quite a bit of the game's history, but I know so little.

Then came 3E. Some see it as the greatest thing since ol' Gygax put some rules on paper. Some see it as creating the McDonalds of gaming (fast, cheap, and lots of it). It really is a bit of both. But as I often say, "the game is what you make of it". 3E (and 3.5E, etc.) gave us all a common framework. I could ramble on and on. I've done it before, and plan to do it again when I bring my Jorune conversion back to the Jorune community (see GenCon page, search for "Jorune")

"Enadam" wrote:
.. but still, I just feel so confused and that is the same reason why I never got into this 4 years ago. I was lonely and had no-one to push me. Today I won't be able to roleplay as I did before, and doing so through mirc or some other chat isn't something that I find funny, I just want to get a grip of the whole concept, history and hear perhaps famous stories through all these years. Like planescape, that existed before the game did, and baldurs gate probably also existed before 98' right? Neverwinter also, I assume.
For the confusion, that's what we're here for. Ask questions and you'll get lots of answers, or at least opinions. As for mircs, chats, etc., they are cool, but they aren't the same. You can't capture the same sense of passion, intrigue, or other emotion that you can face-to-face. Some people may disagree, and that's fine. Again, the history is so broad. Some things existed "back in the day", but in what form they existed varies. Many people that were into the Forgotten Realms might have seen Neverwinter on a map or read it in passing, but it didn't have nearly the depth it does now until much later. A footnote or casual reference in 1990 might have a whole book about it today. Planescape is the same way. That's what we are doing with Planewalker. We're carying on what existed, fleshing out that which had little or no substance, creating new content, and even evolving the "world".

"Enadam" wrote:
Heard that temple of elemental evil (a computer game) also is a "famous" pen and paper rpg. Are there any famous names, and where could these specific games find their audience, was there certain books filled with these kinds of things or was it perhaps through dragons or what that magazined name is?
There are actually two "elemental evil" paper versions. The original was written back in the heyday and then turned into the PC game. They also created the "return to the temple of elemental evil", revitalizing it, converting it to 3E, and adding some fun stuff.

And yes, there are both Dungeon and Dragon magazines, one more geared for DMs and the other for players respectively. Both are good magazines. It just depends what you want out of them. And both magazines often have supplemental content for just about anything; definitely everything mentioned on this thread so far.

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A story to tell and a story to hear.

Thanks for your answers!
Edo: You say you didn't finish Torment because you got hooked into planerwalker, which you describe as a "game". Could we be a bit more specific from now on since I don't wanna get confused for nothing. Eye-wink

When you say game you mean game, and not PC game I assume. What is the difference bewteen Planewalker and Planescape? Because as I understand it, these different Ravenloft, Spacejammer and planescape are like different worlds, but from a "out of game" point of view. Like, we sit down and want to get into this world of imagination but first have to choose a world order, they do not function in the same manner, right? In Baldurs Gate for example, does Planescape even exist? What is Faerun basically, is my biggest question. Do all the books with a "Forgotten Realms"-logo happenings occur in this world? How was it made up, are the gods with real powers like in greek mythology or are there just legends and different types of beliefs like in our world?

I the BG-series we were spawn of Bhaal, the god of murder right? I am a bit confused about the whole "there are so many different gods, characters and famous wars, do they all agree on each others existence in the frames of the whole Dungeons and Dragons"-thing.

What's with the ages? i'm playing Icewind Dale 2 and I read these books, year 1285 Dale Reckoning? Eye-wink
What is that really? I'm curious about the world map, which obvisouly cannot be complete because then there wouldn't be much more to tell, but are there some maps? I know that Icewind Dale is called the spine of the world, and that it's very much up north. Which famous cities are there, is Baldurs Gate famous? Don't even remember what the city in BG2 is called now! :shock: Laughing out loud

What is 3e, third edition? Never heard of the first one i believe, just remember the games eye of beholder and the likes+ those based on infinity engine (bg, pt and icewind) all had second edition. THAC0 I still remember, as me and my friends called taco. Laughing out loud

But then came neverwinter with edition 3, how long had it existed before then? There are ofvcourse hundreds of other systems I am sure, as Fallout for example, but that doesn't count I guess because it's just something made up for a game.

Last questions; I know there is a modscene for these games. Any good ones for the old classic Baldurs 1&2 and Planescape? Don't like neverwinter because of some reason I don't quite fully understand, which is a shame because the modscene there is so big.

Speaking about good games, it's really terrible how PT only sold 70 000 copies as stated on wikipedia. I mean, damn that's a low number. I hold that game as one of the best ever made, thw whole world is just so marvelous and magic while the whole story is so engaging and not cliche... Wonderful. Smiling

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A story to tell and a story to hear.

So many questions! And that is a good thing! Smiling

"Enadam" wrote:
When you say game you mean game, and not PC game I assume. What is the difference bewteen Planewalker and Planescape? Because as I understand it, these different Ravenloft, Spacejammer and planescape are like different worlds, but from a "out of game" point of view.
When I say I got hooked into Planewalker, I meant the website. Not to bore with my own history, but the short version is that I am good friends with the person who currently holds ("owns" on loan) the rights to Planewalker. On our way to and from GenCon a few years ago, he got me hooked, so I started working with Sarah (a.k.a., Clueless or Bast) and we redid the whole website. Well, I did a lot of the planning and plumbing and she refined it and fixed all my broken stuff when I got too busy. Since then, she's the real power behind all this. Without her, we wouldn't even have these fun forums we're using right now!

Anyway, I really need to answer the question "What is Planewalker?" Well, it is the official website for Planescape (PS). So what is Planescape? It is what we call a "campaign setting". D&D and d20 are the core rules while the campaign settings are all the fun places, histories, etc. And yes, Spelljammer (not Spacejammer), Ravenloft, and Forgotten Realms (FR) are other settings.

"Enadam" wrote:
In Baldurs Gate for example, does Planescape even exist? What is Faerun basically, is my biggest question. Do all the books with a "Forgotten Realms"-logo happenings occur in this world? How was it made up, are the gods with real powers like in greek mythology or are there just legends and different types of beliefs like in our world?
That is not a simple question. "It depends." Each setting carries its own set of views. Sometimes they work with others and sometimes they do not. Many times there are official viewpoints and then there are adaptations, house rules, etc. to make them all fit. FR and PS are good examples. PS uses "the great wheel" cosmology. I forget what FR calls theirs, but it is sort of a tree-looking thing. In many ways, they don't fit. There are plenty of adaptations, essays, and "rules" out there, including on the Planewalker site that try to fit it all together.

And yes, in short, anything "Forgotten Realms" happens on one world. The world is called Toril. It is a Prime Material plane/world in PS terms. Most FR stuff centers around Faerun, basically a continent on Torril. The FR:CS (Forgotten Realms: Campaign Setting) has some great maps of Faerun, and even a small map of the entirety of Toril. Dragon Magazine released a set of 4 or 6 large color maps of Faerun a few years ago. Dungeon Magazine has been releasing Greyhawk, another setting. And just to jump around, Greyhawk is not only a setting, but is also the "default" world of 3rd Edition D&D.

PS is a bit unique in some ways. Most settings are a world. PS is a universe, or as we like to call it a multiverse. It tries to bridge countless worlds, settings, and even planes of existence. Not a small task!

"Enadam" wrote:
I am a bit confused about the whole "there are so many different gods, characters and famous wars, do they all agree on each others existence in the frames of the whole Dungeons and Dragons"-thing.
Yes, it is confusing. Again, there are official versions, semi-official versions, and unofficial versions. There are too many to even go into. In general, the official content developers (WOTC, etc.) try to "play nice" with other people's work, but it doesn't always work out. Just mention the somewhat recent Planar Handbook to old-school Planescape folks and be sure to step back or you'll get caught in a rumble. Eye-wink

"Enadam" wrote:
What's with the ages? i'm playing Icewind Dale 2 and I read these books, year 1285 Dale Reckoning? Eye-wink What is that really?
I don't remember them all. FR is a bit odd with ages. The most common is Dale Reckoning, or DR. The Dalelands are an area near central Faerun that are considered to be culturally and socially more developed. I believe old Elminster is from somewhere in the Dales. If not, I do know his main tower/home is there. The FR:CS has a listing of calendars and how to convert between them. I'm too lazy to go downstairs and get my book. Smiling

Another thing about FR and its years are that every year for literally thousands of years is named. "Year of the Spider", "Year of the Mage", etc. There is a story behind them, but basically think of it as some slightly prophetic and mostly crazy man (in the setting) came up with the names and they stuck.

"Enadam" wrote:
I'm curious about the world map, which obvisouly cannot be complete because then there wouldn't be much more to tell, but are there some maps? I know that Icewind Dale is called the spine of the world, and that it's very much up north. Which famous cities are there, is Baldurs Gate famous? Don't even remember what the city in BG2 is called now!
See above about some of the map stuff. Yes, there are other famous places. There is the nation of Thay, where the infamous Red Wizards are from. There is Zhentil Keep where the evil Zhentarim are located. You have Ten Towns, up in Icewind Dale. You have Calimport on the west coast. You have Menzoberranzan, a famous drow city. So many wonderful places!

"Enadam" wrote:
What is 3e, third edition?
Yes, "3E" is third edition. In a nutshell (excuse any errors or missed steps): There was 1st edition, simply known as "Dungeons & Dragons", or D&D. Then there was 2nd edition, simply known as "Advanced Dungeons & Dragons", or AD&D. It wasn't until 3E that the old ones really firmed up as "1E" and "2E". Now there is "3.5E". I know there was something before 1E, something like "Chainmail", but I don't recall and am running out of time tonight to look it up.

"Enadam" wrote:
But then came neverwinter with edition 3, how long had it existed before then? There are ofvcourse hundreds of other systems I am sure, as Fallout for example, but that doesn't count I guess because it's just something made up for a game.
I'm bad with dates. 3E came out around 2000, I think. 1E was in the '70s. 2E was in the '80s. Fallout, while a great game and its game engine was based on an engine used in some D&D-based games, it is not "D&D" in any way. Actually, Fallout was loosely based on a previous PC game called Wasteland. Another great game using something very similar to the original Bard's Tale engine (circa 1987).

"Enadam" wrote:
I know there is a modscene for these games...
I'm so out of touch with PC games nowadays, especially mods. I know there are some good NWN mods out there, including a whole Underdark mod.

(No time to go back and proof this massive post. Gotta run!)

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Well, I did a lot of the planning and plumbing and she refined it and fixed all my broken stuff when I got too busy. Since then, she's the real power behind all this. Without her, we wouldn't even have these fun forums we're using right now!

:shock: :shock: All glory to the HypnoBast... :shock: :shock:

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There was 1st edition, simply known as "Dungeons & Dragons", or D&D. Then there was 2nd edition, simply known as "Advanced Dungeons & Dragons", or AD&D.

Skipping the details, because I'm too lazy to look them up exactly, that's not quite right: First there was Dungeons & Dragons in various box sets ranging from the Red Box (Basic, I think it was called, for like levels 1-5) up through the Gold Box (Immortals). [OK, very first was Chainmail but we'll let that slide.] Original D&D was very simple; I don't remember many of the details except that the alignment system was the pseudo-Moorcockian "Lawful" (= good) and "Chaotic" (= evil) with, I think, some kind of Neutral in there at some point or other. The plethora of dice was there from the beginning, though; that's never changed. This was in the late 70s.

What we now call 1st Edition Advanced Dungeons and Dragons was released in the early 80s (1982? was it even earlier?) and it featured a wealth of complexity (and improvements) over the original D&D. Of relevance to Planescapers is the fact that the alignment system became two dimensional (with Good and Evil added to allow Lawful and Chaotic to become meaningful terms once again). I'm still inordinately fond of the 1st Ed DMG; it's got so much stuff in it as to defy belief. To be honest, I frequently dipped back in there for inspiration even years down the line. The gaming system was broken as all get out -- anyone remember a 1st Ed monk? -- and they periodically tried to improve it, "culminating" in Unearthed Arcana in about 1984 or so.

2nd Edition AD&D came out in the mid 80s -- I think 1986-7? -- and featured yet another wealth of improvements over the original 1st Ed system. [It also axed some things unnecessarily but hey, that's life.] That's the system that most people nowadays think of as AD&D. It suffered from a couple of key structural defects (beyond the basic deficiencies of AD&D) that really kind of screwed things up, but TSR was probably at its height then so it more or less got away with it.

[Planescape came out in 1994, btw, with the Planescape Campaign Setting boxed set and was axed in 1998, I think, shortly after Faction War's release.]

Finally, in 1999-2000, WoTC completely revamped the aging, ailing 2nd Ed AD&D system into the spiffy new 3rd Edition we all know and love. Part of their... well, let's call it a systemic paradigm instead of a marketing gimmick, shall we?... was to go "Old School", back to the naming conventions of the older editions. First, they axed the word "Advanced" from the title as being too off-putting to newbies; so despite the name D&D 3.x is really AD&D 3.x, bearing almost no similarity whatsoever to the original D&D. Second, all the names of the various D&D 3.x products -- Monster Manual, Fiend Folio, Deities & Demigods -- are the names of the equivalent 1st Edition AD&D products, updated for the new system. Lastly -- and most controversially amongst Planescapers -- they went back to 1st Edition's paradigm of providing statistics for everything, including gods, as against 2nd Edition's tendency to leave certain things unstatted and unexplained.

[In fact, D&D 3.x goes beyond 1st Ed AD&D in that it not just provides stats, it provides actual mechanics for dealing with things that previous editions had simply omitted, like the precise way in which divine power is controlled and disbursed.]

That's all off the top of my head so I could well be wrong, but I think that encapsulates the various twists and turns in the D&D saga.

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"Anarch" wrote:
Quote:
Well, I did a lot of the planning and plumbing and she refined it and fixed all my broken stuff when I got too busy. Since then, she's the real power behind all this. Without her, we wouldn't even have these fun forums we're using right now!

:shock: :shock: All glory to the HypnoBast... :shock: :shock:

:oops:

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Well, cool site. I think I'm gonna stick with it since you're all so nice and such. Laughing out loud
It's sick really how many "semi forums" there are out there on something called "yahoo forums" or something similar, evern although most of them only has about 10 members. There is even this cool fraction actually:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/ClubSensation/

Don't know which one I belong to although, so I'm not to keen on joing this one. The design is horrible also, but that's a different problem.

Why would old school leets dislikle the recent planar hanbook, is it a re-run of an older book or just something new that they don't like because it explains too much? It seems cool, If I would buy something now it would without a doubt me a book that explains the planenscape setting, as you call it. I would also write a story about Adahn! Sticking out tongue

Menzoberranzan I remember, was it not the drow city i BG2? Perhaps not, but I had this friend in Poland that always was ranting on about Drizzt and Menzo.

What I entertain myself with now are the ten town booksthat are scattered around icewind dale 2, it's wonderful, that's what it is! The story about the tree that many druids worshipped for example, and settlers came and wanted to see it too.

Anarch: Despite you talking my nickname Anarchos (almost) ya seems ta me yer a nice lad! Thank you for all the info. A first edition monk, what was wrong with him? Didn't they habe beta tester back then? Eye-wink

About 3E, it does seem more at the same time as things such as armor class suddenly going up instead of having THAC0 as system seem more conventional. And now dwarfs can become necromancers!
Laughing out loud (not that I care, but hey)

Edo: You wrote that PT and FR were settings, but is there more than just location that differs them from eachother right? I can't come up with names on top of my head since it was such a long time ago I played Baldurs Gate (cleared it like 20 times in total!) but there do exist gods in there? It can be hard to answer, but is it sort of like in planescape perhaps that if someone believes in something then it will start to exist? If there would be a continue to PT I believe the coolest story would be following (or circling around) Adahn, the guy that started to exist if you told enough people about him.

I actually wrote a story called "Sanity Dispelled" when I was like 14-15 which is 3-4 years ago which was very much the same, although I hadn't played PT yet and was more inspired by Terry Pratchett and The Matrix. A guy wakes up, finds out he's dead and that there are sort of these fractions that all believe in a profecia about a chosen one, and they all have different theories about what to do with him, i.e kill him, send him out to the outpost (or something like that) and other. That universe is indeed strange too, and has a belief system that is based on "if you think I'm powerful, I am". I wanted to do a redux on the whole thing because it got sooo totally fucked up at the end (basically like matrix 2-3 where everything just makes no sence when you think about it) but even more so. Now it seems I would just imitate planescape though...

The Fraction War, why did it start? Seems cool that you can choose settings before and after the war when you're playing/writing something. Smiling

PS: Not that you will understand, but there is indeed something you all will understand:

http://www.helgon.net/UserInfo/UserInfo.asp?ID=42205

(Yep, that's my swedish face as they said in Ed: enloooongage your face to be swedish) Eye-wink

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"Enadam" wrote:
Edo: You wrote that PT and FR were settings, but is there more than just location that differs them from eachother right?

Aye - though location within a multiverse is the first thing folks notice. The relationship of FR and PS (PlaneScape):

FR was created first as a setting. This means it was a 'world' of it's own, much like how one book series is in a different world from another.

PS was created later, but at the time was designed to encompass all the other settings as a backdrop or behind-the-scenes to all the rest. This would allow characters from FR to play in PS and DMs to run either one or the other setting, or both even.

This difference (FR created first, PS encompassing all settings) leads to some conflict amongst fans regarding which setting should be considered more 'right' when it comes to events, cosmologies, and other such things.

Other big differences between the two settings: style, mood, and approach to the game. Philosophical differences on 'how things work' such as deities vs. the power of belief. The settings have plots that focus on different things, FR plots revolve around saving the world or or basic fantasy plots, PS plots often involve an element of philosophy or changing the multiverse in them. PS as a setting encourages deeper thought than the 'oh! monster! kill it and take it's stuff!'. FR doesn't do this as well (though it can).

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A story to tell and a story to hear.

My advice to you, Enadam, is to NOT read the D&D rulebooks. They are a straitjacket for the mind and they will bind your soul forever to the D&D business strategy. Keep playing with your own rules and your own imagination, and just plunder the various worlds of Planescape, Forgotten Realms, et al. for ideas and story material. Planescape is the best setting to do this in because the PS books have so few rules and so much wonderful description.

As for Drizzt and all the rest, you can probably find a synopsis of their adventures on the net, or read the Icewind Dale books. Frankly you're better off reading good fantasy literature, like the Sword in the Stone/Fortress of the Pearl/Song of Ice and Fire/etc. than anything by RA Salvatore.

And welcome to our little planescape home. Smiling

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A story to tell and a story to hear.

"Krypter" wrote:
My advice to you, Enadam, is to NOT read the D&D rulebooks. They are a straitjacket for the mind and they will bind your soul forever to the D&D business strategy. Keep playing with your own rules and your own imagination, and just plunder the various worlds of Planescape, Forgotten Realms, et al. for ideas and story material. Planescape is the best setting to do this in because the PS books have so few rules and so much wonderful description.
Ahh, Krypter, ever the non-conformist with wild ideas. (Said with adoration of a man I've never physically met, but have known a few years now.)

I'm not sure I'd say don't read the core rulebooks, but do be sure to not make them into something more than they are and should be. As I've tried to explain on the Jorune list I frequent, it isn't so much that "d20" (used as a generic for core rules) is the pinnacle, but it is a common ground we can all use. My campaigns are always littered with house rules and adaptations. What I like most about d20 is its ease in "translating" material to what I need it for.

For the 'puter nerds in the crowd, I think of it like HTML, XML, or even SQL. I'll go with the last one. If I'm coding for MS SQL, Oracle, MySQL, DB2, Access, or who knows what, they all have similar roots so that I can easily adapt one format into another.

For a different, more "squishy" angle, look at the English language. By far not the best language there is, but it is somewhat of a standard. Look at our new Swedish friend here. There are some quirks in his posts, but in many ways he articulates better than some of us with English as a native language! Smiling

But I'm getting more and more OT. Sorry.

"Enadam" wrote:
Edo: You wrote that PT and FR were settings, but is there more than just location that differs them from eachother right?
Clueless answered for me and I agree with her answer. Think of most campaign settings as self-contained, but most gamers (and game developers) like to tinker, so they try to make it all work together. Sometimes they fit and other times they don't. We learn to overlook the problems. If we can suspend our "normal/real" beliefs to play a game where twiddling fingers and uttering unusual phrases can do anything from create balls of fire to transport you to another plane of existence, I think we can overlook a few little flaws. Laughing out loud

I have to say that this thread has been very interesting, entertaining, and even a bit more civil than a lot of past threads. It is exciting for me to talk about all this and to see (nay feel) the excitement and fascination of a newcomer.

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A story to tell and a story to hear.

So mi posts seem e' bit quirky to ye, ay? Better keep that mouth of yers closed or I'll leave ye with a split jaw! Ah, gotta love Bioware/Black Isle and what they've done to my english. Eye-wink

As you've perhaps already figured out the most interesting parts in RPGs in my opinion are the dialogues. Spoke to one of my friends today and he agreed on that, said that what makes him bored in RPGs (especially japanese one with their filthy random encounters) are the combats. I actually enjoy a big part of them, but only the ones that need you to prepare 20 minutes before. One legendary fight among me and my friends is the one i Durlags Tower (BG), the 4 or 5 dwarfen guards. Took us quite som time to conquer, even though I think it would be alot easier for me today.

These dungeons that occur all the time in games are really just things that come in between that which is trivial, most of the time I don't find it all that entertaining, except i Diablo and Hexplore. Eye-wink
Oh, and Dark Stone. But enough about that, Planescape proved that there is no bigger financial interest in making a game without much fighting.

The rulesbooks you are talking about, are you refering to those ones that explain the world orders or just basic THAC0 and saving throws and such? I would like to understand the universe of planescape fully, so I think I would find a rulebook good there. Sure, I can make up my own stories right away and gather some people around, sitting by the bonfire, but it won't feel right. My days of "being dungeon master and creator of my own RPG" are over, at least for now. I want to be astounded by a core which I can build new things on. Not sure I got what ye meant, and not sure if you understand me now either.
Laughing out loud

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"Enadam" wrote:
Oh, and Dark Stone. But enough about that
Dark Stone... sorry, but I did not care for it. Maybe I was too in love with Diablo 1&2. I played DS for about a week.

"Enadam" wrote:
Planescape proved that there is no bigger financial interest in making a game without much fighting.
I'm not sure I understand that part. Do you mean that the powers-that-be don't see it to be financially viable to create stuff that isn't hack-n-slash? For video games, I agree. For d20/3E, I mostly agree. There are some out there that still enjoy role-playing. It was neat to see a Jester prestige class in Dragon Magazine a month or two ago. It wasn't purely the motley fool, but it was a nice combination of social and rogue aspects.

"Enadam" wrote:
The rulesbooks you are talking about, are you refering to those ones that explain the world orders or just basic THAC0 and saving throws and such? I would like to understand the universe of planescape fully, so I think I would find a rulebook good there. Sure, I can make up my own stories right away and gather some people around, sitting by the bonfire, but it won't feel right. My days of "being dungeon master and creator of my own RPG" are over, at least for now. I want to be astounded by a core which I can build new things on. Not sure I got what ye meant, and not sure if you understand me now either. Laughing out loud
I can't speak for Krypter, I but I was thinking about the main core books (Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide). When it comes to PS, there isn't really a core rule book similar to PHB/DMG. Manual of the Planes is pretty close. It gives a nice overview of, well, the planes. I don't own Planar Handbook, but I've seen it. It seems ok. I still lean towards MOTP as a good place to start. I'm sure others will have plenty of opinions as well. Smiling

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Sure, some people like dialogues. But PT didn't sell good, and I got a good guess as to the reason why. Sales on Diablo went skyhigh, because it is easy to get into and is fairly addictive. In PT you have to read through miles of text, something I find very interesting when as well done as in PT, but most people don't.

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A story to tell and a story to hear.

That's why the folks that like dialogue tend to enjoy table top roleplaying a *lot* and video games less.

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