A Brilliant, Insane Idea

11 posts / 0 new
Last post
Lord Zack's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-11-10
A Brilliant, Insane Idea

The Demonands are trapped in Carceri. So I've come up with an idea that they might use to escape permanently. They could abduct good aligned creatures and hold them captive in one layer of Carceri. Eventually they will shift the alignment of the layer so much that the layer will shift into another plane, thereby escaping from Carceri.

The players could be attacked by Demonands who try to abduct them. If captured, they'd have to find they're way off Carceri. Later they learn of the Demonands' plot and try to stop them. What do you think? Are they're any glaring errors with my idea?

The Great Hippo's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2005-07-28
A Brilliant, Insane Idea

It would take a lot, and I mean a lot, and I mean a whole frigging god-damn holy-crap that's a lot of good-aligned creatures.

I like the idea of escaping an entire plane by doing something to shift the plane's natural paradigm, though.

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
A Brilliant, Insane Idea

It would be ironic if, because the plane that had defined them for so many eons was shifting alignment, the fiends' alignment began changing as well.

Kestral's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-03-27
A Brilliant, Insane Idea

Brilliant? Check.
Insane? Check.
Ironic? Check.
Darkly funny? Check.
Likely to work? Ehh....

That said, it's wonderful because if said scheme works, you have an obvious way of showing 'belief as a force' in-game. If it doesn't work, well, it's so ludicrous it makes for a good background color tidbit. However, knowing myself as a player, I'd go ahead and attempt have my character actually get the demodands' scheme to work, if I'm trying to escape Carceri. I'd not be sure how to go about putting such a plan in action, realistically, however. (Possibly one method would be getting the yugoloths involved and then double-crossing both the demodands and the yugoloths by convincing celestials that the two groups are working together to stop the Blood War so that they come to Carceri in massive numbers in order to stop the 'plot'... however, that would obviously be prone to it's own difficulties.)

Duckluck's picture
Offline
Factor
Joined: 2006-10-10
A Brilliant, Insane Idea

A layer in Carceri is infinitely large, therefore, it would be nearly impossible to cause the necessary change across an entire layer simply by luring celestials. Because there are at least billions (and possibly an infinite number) of Gehreleths/Demodands, in order of it to shift into, say, the Outlands, you would need billions of celestials. Otherwise, the layer's nature would stay the same and the most likely outcome would simply be the utter corruption of a huge number of Celestials. Simply put, you can't fight an infinite plane with finite numbers. This is why the Order of the Planes Millitant never gets anywhere.

That said, there's no reason they should have to try to break off an entire layer. Carceri is conveniently broken up in to spheres. These spheres are finite in size and will only have a certain, defined, number of Demodands. So all they have to is bring in enough celestials (between a few dozen and a few million, depending on the size of the sphere), and eventually that sphere will no longer match the rest of the plane and slide into the Outlands or even one of the upper planes.

Of course, perhaps the simplest way to cause part of a planar region to shift is simply by having its residents not act the way they are supposed to. This would cause a Nemausus style slip where the Layer/Sphere moved to another plane simply because its residents didn't belong there anymore. This almost certainly would not work with Gehreleths though. They are, after all, Examplars, physical embodiments of their planes. Being treacherous, sadistic monsters with no morals to speak of is just part of who they are. It's at least as natural for them as eating or breathing. Yes, it's possible for them to rise above their pettiness, but they probably won't. Which is why they need celestials.

I personally think it's a cool idea to have them lure celestials. One wonders though what will happen to the Demodands after they planeshift.

Hymneth's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-08-01
A Brilliant, Insane Idea

'Duckluck' wrote:
Because there are at least billions (and possibly an infinite number) of Gehreleths/Demodands, in order of it to shift into, say, the Outlands, you would need billions of celestials. Otherwise, the layer's nature would stay the same and the most likely outcome would simply be the utter corruption of a huge number of Celestials. Simply put, you can't fight an infinite plane with finite numbers.
Actually, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that in accordance with the wishes of their creator Apomps the Triple Aspected there are exactly 3,333 Gehreleths in existance at any given time. That can be swelled to 9,999 in times of trouble by gathering corpses to turn into 'newborn' Gehreleths, and I believe they were in the process of doing that in the last official source I read. So you're not really dealing with infinite numbers, but just under 10,000 creatures that are spread across all of Carceri's layers (I forget how many layers it has, but I remember there are several). Then, if they managed to all gather together on one layer (Along with good ol' Apomps) and offset their 'philosophical mass' as it were with LG celestials, it might just be able to rip loose if the celestials were large enough in number. Even at that it's gonna be nigh-impossible to pull off, but they have better odds on it than any other exemplar race, IMHO.

Iavas's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2006-07-12
A Brilliant, Insane Idea

You're close, Hymneth. There are exactly 3,333 of each type of Gehreleth, ergo 9,999 in all, totaling at 10,000 if you include Apomps. They swell to double that amount in times of trouble and then almost instantly go back to the original number afterwards (and nobody knows how).

Vaevictis Asmadi's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-05-31
A Brilliant, Insane Idea

But would trying to escape Carceri be an insult to Apomps who put them there?

How did Nemausus/Menausus shift? It is also infinite, right? And which is the correct spelling? (Both are in the Encyclopedia)

Bob the Efreet's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-05-11
A Brilliant, Insane Idea

'Vaevictis Asmadi' wrote:
But would trying to escape Carceri be an insult to Apomps who put them there?

Apomps was cast out by the other baernaloths. He probably likes the idea of freedom as much as any of the titans.

Quote:
How did Nemausus/Menausus shift? It is also infinite, right?

Harmonium naughtiness.

__________________

Pants of the North!

Bartezu's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-12-20
A Brilliant, Insane Idea

'Duckluck' wrote:
I personally think it's a cool idea to have them lure celestials. One wonders though what will happen to the Demodands after they planeshift.

I was thinking exactly the same thing. If you want this in an adventure you could have the PCs go tell the good guys so when the bad guys shift a celestial host is waiting to slaughter them all, making the Demodands the joke of the multiverse.

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
A Brilliant, Insane Idea

'Vaevictis Asmadi' wrote:
How did Nemausus/Menausus shift? It is also infinite, right? And which is the correct spelling? (Both are in the Encyclopedia)

Nemausus is the spelling used in 1e/2e. In 3rd edition, they changed it to Menausus, probably to avoid confusion with the realm of Neumannus. Or maybe it was a typo.

In real life, Nemausus was the patron god of the city of Nimes in ancient Gaul. Menausus doesn't mean anything.

Planescape, Dungeons & Dragons, their logos, Wizards of the Coast, and the Wizards of the Coast logo are ©2008, Wizards of the Coast, a subsidiary of Hasbro Inc. and used with permission.