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4e Manual of the Planes

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Sun, 2008-12-21 13:08
#1
Rikutatis
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4e Manual of the Planes

Did anyone else take their time to read this book?

It's not a bad book when compared to 3e material (although it pales in comparison to Hordes of the Abyss). But it didn't do much to change my opinions on the new cosmology.

Major pros:

 . The Feywild: In my opinion this is by far the best rendition of elves and the fairie realm in any incarnation D&D has ever had. This is not to say it's perfect, I wouldn't have minded if the fey were more dark, dangerous and unpredictable. But that's a matter of taste.

 . The Plane of Dreams and the Shadowfell were also pretty good, if a bit underdeveloped.

. Metaplot: I like the fact that there's a metaplot going on in the new cosmology. It feels more alive than 3e was.

 

Major cons:

. Primordials versus gods: Even though I like the fact that there's a metaplot going on, I happen to really dislike its core element - the whole primordials versus gods thing. They may think they moved D&D away from the alignment system, but in truth they just simplified it. The whole thing can be summed up as 'big chaos entitites seek to destroy the cosmos but the forces of law keep them at bay'. Very cliched. Very uninspiring.

. Demons: It's pretty sad to see what the demons became in the new cosmology. I used to love all things demonic in 2e, now they're just mindless beasts. This new trend to conceptualize chaos as mindless destruction irks me.

. Locales of interest: There's very little interest in them. The specific adventure locations described in the book just feel bland and uninspired for the most part. It lacks that wonderland surreal feel often associated with the planes in Planescape (or even Beyond Countless Doorways).

Overall, I'm glad I read it at the bookstore instead of buying it. I wasn't expecting Planescape 4e, I just don't think the product stands on its own that well, comparisons aside. Also, did anyone else notice that even though Far Realm, Dreams and the Plane of Mirrors are all listed as alternate planes, the Plane of Mirrors was the only one totally omitted?! That was a major let down as well, since the Plane of Mirrors is a favorite of mine.

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Mon, 2008-12-22 21:41
#2
Anime Fan
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Well, at least they didn't

Well, at least they didn't screw up too badly on the Sigil material, assuming you can stand the fact that Shemeska the Marauder is now a "Raavasta" instead of an "Arcanaloth". There certainly is a shortage of locations to adventure in as things stand now, but I assume more will be added as time goes by. And since there's no set number of "Dominions" in the Astral Sea, you could add as many old or new planes as you wanted, something that wasn't really possible with the Great Wheel. I was glad to see stats for Baphomet and Grazz't, but suprised to learn that Grazz't is now an ex-Devil... go figure. I don't think it's a bad book, just not as good as it could've been. And what's with Shadow Demons not collecting souls anymore? PHHH-LEEEEZZZEEE!!!        (P.S. There's quite a few references to older material here, including the Dread Emperor from Book of Vile Darkness and Spelljammers... heh heh.)

Tue, 2008-12-23 18:07
#3
sciborg2
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I don't think it was worth

I don't think it was worth $30 or even $19 on Amazon. I may snatch up a used copy a year from now. Way too little material for its price, some good nuggets here and there.

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Tue, 2008-12-23 19:40
#4
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Rikutatis wrote: Also, did

Rikutatis wrote:

Also, did anyone else notice that even though Far Realm, Dreams and the Plane of Mirrors are all listed as alternate planes, the Plane of Mirrors was the only one totally omitted?! That was a major let down as well, since the Plane of Mirrors is a favorite of mine.

Those were the two that a member of the 4e design team created (back in 2e), so stands to reason that they got more exposure. Not saying it's good or bad, but they're Cordell's pet concepts, so you're bound to see some emphasis (it's like me and fiends).

 As for Plane of Mirrors, I never liked it all that much, but the little bits that Wolfgang Baur did with the mirror mephits in the 3.5 planar module with Sigil were pretty darn cool.

Tue, 2008-12-23 19:41
(Reply to #3) #5
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sciborg2 wrote:I don't

sciborg2 wrote:
I don't think it was worth $30 or even $19 on Amazon. I may snatch up a used copy a year from now. Way too little material for its price, some good nuggets here and there.

If you can find it used, it's worth $10. But I wouldn't buy it used.

I found it significantly cheaper.

Wed, 2008-12-24 01:31
#6
Center of All
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I thought it was a fairly

I thought it was a fairly decent book.  Not one I'd play money for, but a good read all the same.  I find it especially good if you approach it without trying to compare it to previous editions or (especially) Planescape.  Sigil and other familiar names notwithstanding, this is an entirely different cosmology and really has little bearing on the past.

 One of the biggest interesting points for me was the note that Graz'zt is apparently a devil who became a demon.  I found that a rather intriguing tidbit, one that plots could be built off of.

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Wed, 2008-12-24 04:24
(Reply to #5) #7
sciborg2
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Shemeska the Marauder

Shemeska the Marauder wrote:

If you can find it used, it's worth $10. But I wouldn't buy it used.

I found it significantly cheaper.

Honestly I don't know if it's worth the space it would take. That sounds mean, yes, but about 2 pages or less of material wowed me. Beyond that it's pretty much a cut and paste job gouging the hard work of previous designers whose work they mocked.

It could never measure up, and it "fixed" nothing. But hell, I'm like Batman, "sentimental before I was old."

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Wed, 2008-12-24 09:30
#8
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I got a hold of a physical

I got a hold of a physical copy at Borders yesterday and considered it. Picked it up and then realized how lightweight it felt in my hands. The page count for the new books is... low. With the larger font and use of white space...  ( mind you, things for layout I do consider wise ideas but which should make a book thicker, not thinner ) the thing is just too thin.

It honestly just didn't feel like enough material to warrent the pricetag. Like someone took the word count content of a splatbook, put a hard cover on it and upped the price just for the extra cardboard.

Wed, 2008-12-24 15:27
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Center of All
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Clueless wrote: I got a

Clueless wrote:

I got a hold of a physical copy at Borders yesterday and considered it. Picked it up and then realized how lightweight it felt in my hands. The page count for the new books is... low. With the larger font and use of white space...  ( mind you, things for layout I do consider wise ideas but which should make a book thicker, not thinner ) the thing is just too thin.

It honestly just didn't feel like enough material to warrent the pricetag. Like someone took the word count content of a splatbook, put a hard cover on it and upped the price just for the extra cardboard.

This, mostly.  I'm kind of disappointed with how empty all of the 4e books have been (a major factor in why I haven't actually bought any).  The DMG and MM were passable, but the Player's Handbook was terribly lacking.  There's a lot that was released in Adventurer's Vault and Martial Power that could've easily been included in the PHB, especially for the price.

With MotP, I think they did a reasonable job of creating a cosmology.  Gods vs. Primordials is a little...eh.  One of my biggest annoyances since the advent of 4e is the removal of Lawful Evil and Chaotic Good as alignments.  To me, alignments really don't have a place in 4e since nothing mechanical affects or is affected by them.  And making LG the only "lawful" alignment and CE the only "chaotic" alignment makes it like they're trying to say Law is inherently Good and Chaos is inherently Evil.  This is only further reinforced by the MotP, which makes me even less excited.  The book is good for the new edition and is not a bad read, it's just definitely not a $30 read.

It would seem, though, that those of us loyal to classic Planescape may be in the minority.  I know several people that are excited about the rumor that Wizards may do their PG/DMG/MM combo for Planescape and Spelljammer together (like they did for FR) using the new cosmology.  Said people that I've talked to, however, don't seem to realize there's more to Planescape than just the planes (even the ones that apparently are never used or visited like Bytopia). 

At any rate, I might use this new book as a jumping point if I decide to run a generic 4e game.  With the generic "setting" that 4e created, it works as a nice companion.  However, it doesn't satisfy the requirements to make something "Planescape," so I won't be using it for 4e Planescape things.

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Wed, 2008-12-24 15:40
#10
Clueless
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Out of curiosity what makes

Out of curiosity what makes the planes Planescapian for you? Mostly asking to get some insight into what we can fill in, or ways to approach topics for our '4th ed done right' version of the planes.

Wed, 2008-12-24 16:14
(Reply to #4) #11
Rikutatis
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Shemeska the Marauder wrote:

Shemeska the Marauder wrote:

Those were the two that a member of the 4e design team created (back in 2e), so stands to reason that they got more exposure. Not saying it's good or bad, but they're Cordell's pet concepts, so you're bound to see some emphasis (it's like me and fiends).

 I can understand and accept the fact that different authors will emphasize different aspects of the cosmology. However the Plane of Mirrors was totally omitted. As far as I recall, it's the only plane in the entire book that is mentioned in the cosmology outline but not given even a single paragraph of description. It sounded more like an editing decision than anything else to me. I wouldn't be surprised to find out there was a write up but it was not included in the final product. "Not enough adventuring opportunities there, let's cut it out".

Shemeska the Marauder wrote:

 As for Plane of Mirrors, I never liked it all that much, but the little bits that Wolfgang Baur did with the mirror mephits in the 3.5 planar module with Sigil were pretty darn cool.

 The mirror tidbits (mephits and magic) were probably the only things I actually liked about that module. Smiling

Wed, 2008-12-24 16:28
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Rikutatis
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Clueless wrote:Out of

Clueless wrote:
Out of curiosity what makes the planes Planescapian for you? Mostly asking to get some insight into what we can fill in, or ways to approach topics for our '4th ed done right' version of the planes.

 To me it would be the power of belief and the subsequent politics that revolve around belief in the planes. Factions, sects, exemplars, the blood war and everything else. Planescape wasn't only a collection of exotic locales, it was actually turned into a cohesive campaign setting by giving it a characteristic theme and feel. All else fell into place along that theme.

Of all D&D settings it was the one less geared to hack'n'slash. This was also one of its selling points to me.

I don't necessarily think that the 4e planes need to try to emulate Planescape in order to be memorable though. I would love to see something new and original, a new take on planar campaigns, whether it is inspired by PS or not. I would probably go that route if I ever chose to play 4e. I don't think that's happening in any foreseeable future though.

Wed, 2008-12-24 17:43
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Center of All
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Clueless wrote:Out of

Clueless wrote:
Out of curiosity what makes the planes Planescapian for you? Mostly asking to get some insight into what we can fill in, or ways to approach topics for our '4th ed done right' version of the planes.

Well, I should first say that I don't think Planescape and 4e are mutually exclusive creations.  I think PS can survive just fine in 4e (and possibly in the 4e cosmology).  Mechanics don't make the whole game.

For me, a fair portion is the "belief affects reality" aspect.  One of the reasons I like the Great Wheel cosmology is because the Great Wheel is this concept incarnate.  There's a plane for each basic idea of good, evil, law, and chaos, and it conveys the alignment system in a way that makes it make sense.  What is the law when taken to an evil extreme?  How can someone be good without adhering to rigid structures of law?  What is law or chaos like when blind to the ideas of good or evil; or what is evil or good like when you remove law and chaos from the equation.  There are places you can go to see examples of these concepts.  I don't think alignment is bad at all -- though I also don't think an alignment label is absolutely necessary for Great Wheel cosmology, either.

I also really, really, really like all the Inner Planes much better than the concept of the Elemental Chaos, but that's not a Planescape-specific thing necessarily.  And actually, now that I think about it, the Elemental Chaos sounds a lot like the Elemental Plane in Warcraft cosmology.  But that's another story.

The other big thing that makes something "Planescape" is the flavor.  I love the Cant, I love the cagey Cager-ness.  I love the presentation of the modules, books, and guides.  They come at you as if written by someone who is actually there and I think that's awesome.  It's the biggest thing that made me want to read Planescape in the first place.  Wizards hasn't written fluff that is really good in AGES, and I think a good portion of that is they take out the "native flavor" and just write everything textbook style.  Without this approach -- without at least using Cant in the writing -- I don't get the Planescape feel.  

Finally, I like the mystique.  Planescape includes a LOT of things that are difficult or impossible to explain and I think that is perfect.  It seems like Wizards feels their players want everything spelled out, but I am of the opinion that not everything should be explained or explainable.  Some things should be continuous subjects of speculation, and some darks you should really have to work for to discover.  Combined with the lack of real flavor in the prose, I just don't feel like most mysteries they talk about are really all that mysterious.

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Wed, 2008-12-24 19:24
#14
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That's a great analysis

That's a great analysis Center of All.

 I'd sum it up as it being the difference between someone just doing it for the money, and someone doing it because they love it who is grateful to the fans that they get to do this for a living.

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Thu, 2008-12-25 09:43
#15
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I think it's interesting

I think it's interesting that the version of the Great Wheel cosmology that they summarize on page 15 isn't exactly the 3e Great Wheel. Most significantly, the Ethereal joins the Material Plane to the Inner Planes again, and the Astral Plane is once again confined to connecting the Material Plane to the Outer Planes. The other differences are mainly ones of terminology (they're an awkward fit for the 4e alignment system, and Sigil and the Far Realm are defined as demiplanes).

Thu, 2008-12-25 12:30
#16
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My feeling on it is one of

My feeling on it is one of the authors is an old school Planescape fan in contrast to some of the other authors who are known not to be terribly fond of the old Planescape material. Probably Rob Schwalb given his work on the Mercykiller article under Dragon, so I'd bet he went back to the old 2nd ed material to write it up.

Thu, 2008-12-25 13:09
#17
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The Mercykiller article

The Mercykiller article actually wasn't bad imo.  Better than a lot of things I've seen from Wizards overall lately.  Like I said, I have been underwhelmed by their fluff-writing and the article had a bit better quality than most.

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Sat, 2009-01-03 17:32
#18
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While I agree with

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While I agree with almost all of what has been said about the Manual of the Planes (It's inferior, etc.) I feel like the conflict between Gods and Primordials, although unfortunately seeming to lay down as Law vs. Chaos, is actually one of the few things I really like about the 4e setting.

 Allow me to explain. The difference between the Astral and the Elemental Chaos is that the Astral is the province of thoughts and concepts, but the Chaos is made purely out of physical materials. The battle between Gods and Primordials should not have been set down as law vs. chaos, although it was, rather it is a battle much like the war invisible war between the factions that occurs in sigil. It is a debate played out with spies and armies, and the two sides are either thought, or matter. The gods rule over concepts, there are gods of death, life, harvest, civilization, wilderness, but in 4e there are no gods that are associated with any of the actual elements, and few associated with physical things (Lloth has spiders and shadows, Kord has strength, Melora has “sea”, Pelor has sun, Sehanine has moon, and Zehir has darkness and serpents) the point is that the gods represent nothing physical, but the represent the ideas those things symbolize.

The Primordials do not seek to break everything down into chaos, or to give it order, because these things are alien to them, they only seek to break everything down back into the pure state that once existed before they and their creation became tainted with thought. There would be no chaos, or order, or good, or law, in their perfect world, they would not live either, rather everything would simply exist, functionally unchanging.

The fact is though, that this is not how 4e is presented anywhere. The Primordials represent the Gods for the imposition of order, not for the imposition of thought. The fact is that even with a return to the great wheel the duality created by thought and matter is one that is still more than applicable. The factions, naturally, would all have their positions on this, simply as an outgrowth of their philosophies. The Sinkers might support the elementals as the end point of entropy, or revile them as trying to build something altogether new, most others would likely side with the gods, or not care, although it is likely the Bleakers would fall somewhere between the two sides, resenting the gods for attempting to create a sense of meaning in the multiverse, and resenting the elementals for denying them inner meaning.

In any case, I agree that the Manual of the Planes is not as it should be, and that I will not be buying it. I just feel that there are ideas (such as the Feywild and Shadowfell) that are not only salvageable, but improvements on the old ideas, in this case the Feywild far surpasses the nebulous “Faerie” that is sometime mentioned, and the Shadowfell is the plain of Shadow, but that actually makes sense now.

Sorry if I bored you, GIT.

 

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Sun, 2009-01-04 00:38
#19
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Good points actually -

Good points actually - especially because the "Nephandi" type goal of dissolution falls to elemental rather than Far Realm beings. It might actually be easier to take elemental gods of Sun, nature, and such and just make them loyal children of the primordials. One could shift allegiances to make it civilization vs. nomadic/tribal if thought vs matter is too exreme.

For a really well done take on Primordials vs. Gods, I'd check out White Wolf's Scion rpg.

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Sun, 2009-02-22 16:19
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In fact I think Motp is the

In fact I think Motp is the best 4E book, at DMG side. No matter what edition you use there's some interesting ideas there.

Wed, 2009-02-25 16:35
#21
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I beg to differ, even though

I beg to differ, even though I like elements of the book. The book is way too thin... look at "Draconomicon: Chomatic Dragons" or "Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead": THOSE books are CRAMMED FULL of good 4E stuff; "Draconomicon" has loads of Dragon variants including the vampire dragon template and such, while "Open Grave" features iconic undead like Vecna, Kas, Kyuss, Strahd, etc... compared with which the 4E MOTP is awfully bare. It's not a bad book in my opinion, mind you, just not "full" enough. They should have included more Dominions in the Astral Sea - 9 makes it seem too empty. And more Planar monsters should have been included. But maybe more will be in MM2...

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