4e I Has It, Is Garbage!

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4e I Has It, Is Garbage!

'Casvenx'][QUOTE='Archdukechocula' wrote:
the alignment grid exists as a objective value for the same reason armor class does. its an OOC scale for us as players to judge and agree on how the game works. the character doesnt go around saying they are lawful good, just like they dont go around saying they have an 18 AC.

Actually, it does, hence things like Detect Evil. It is a mechanical feature of the system. Beings can radiate evil. Evil can be warded. Values are objectified and made into a mechanical reality of the D&D world. If it weren't then alignment would be mostly pointless, as it is redundant with character conception. Any well thought out character will have a background and an ethos, which does make alignment superfluous, except that alignment is a thing that has consequences beyond the role playing element. You can lose experience mechanically in situations where you do an excellent job dramatically playing character development. There is an explicit mechanical punishment for that kind of change, which is, in essence, a mechanical discouragement to fundamental changes in character outlook.

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yes, a character can hae internal disagreement and anguish over what is good ("was it better to save the one child i knew i could, or should i have tried to save the other dozen i didnt think i could?!? was one route even more good then the other, or was one merely failure?? oh god! why art thee so cruel?!?") two LG civilizations can even war with each other simply because of different emphasis (like worship of a different god, a different aspect of LG). all characters, regardless of their alignment, by definition believe their beilief to be 'better' and 'more right' then all the others. they probably call it 'good', if they really felt like putting a label on it... or 'realistic' on the other end of the spectrum. just like people do in real life.

You can do a limited range of this things, but you have to justify it in weird ways for it to really be compatible with the concept of alignment. Lawful good people cannot go about committing heinous crimes in the name of their nation state. They have to be lawful good all the time, in all contexts, otherwise it is an alignment violation. This is simply not reflective of the fact that nearly all people's moral compass is context dependent, both in terms of their culture and their given situation. They can be the equivalent of Lawful Good in one context and Chaotic Evil in another context without there being any contradiction at all. D&D says this is a contradiction, and should be discouraged, and even penalized. I would call it nuance, and see no reason to actively discourage such things as long as it is born out of role playing.

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i do however think 1st ed. should have come up with something better then 'good' and 'evil'. but remember they were new then, and most people thought roleplaying was synonymous with devil worship. they HAD to make it pretty blatant the game was 'about' acting as lawful and good crusaders vanquishing the evil forces of the world. and because of that, being the first successful and well known game system, i think we are stuck with the terms.

They could have. But again, I don't much see the point. What does alignment do that roleplaying does not? The only thing I see it doing is providing a fundamental moral compass for the D&D universe, one that I see as reductive and in some cases restrictive.

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and yes we need a OOC value system for this, exactly so we dont have these arguments. alignment should not limit your character actions at all. play your character as you think you should, with no thought of alignment, and the alignment will follow your character.

OK. But then why use alignment at all? What purpose does it serve at that point? Is it there just so I can cast DEtect Alignment? A "detect intent" spell can be made that fills the same role, without the objective moral judgment thrown in. I prefer a system with a clean moral slate that is not fitted with a preexisting moral framework. If I want a moral framework for my world, I will make it. If I don't want one, alignment just gets in the way.

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if your referring to situations where things change directly as a result of a shift in alignment (like loss of paladin status, loss of god-powers), your character is simply having an identity crisis. in each of those situations there is a direct force telling your character what it should or should not be doing (the god, the code of ethics it embraced to begin with), and failure to comply is what loses your status (which may or may not change your alignment).

Why should a character be penalized for an identity crisis? In the case of a God worshiping, again, alignment is redundant. The God has a code of conduct itself that you either follow or don't. Alignment is unnecessary to explain that. It is just an extra mechanical layer that need not be.

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so if the alignment system itself is not limiting play (merely the misunderstanding of it), dumping it wont allow greater freedom. dumping it in fact costs the game a dynamic that has been a staple since the beginning. you questioned why two LG civilizations would war with each other... why in the world would two 'unaligned' gods war with each other? what in the hell does 'unaligned' even mean within a system that still has an alignment scale? unaligned means zero intelligence to me, a creature that acts on instinct alone. with or without alignment all the same things are possible. but with one option there is an objective grid for us to play with it, both from a game mechanics perspective, and a character guideline one.

Now you've veered off into a totally bizarre tangent. I'm not advocating 4e alignment as an alternative. I explicitly stated as much in the comment you quoted from. I'm advocating not using alignment at all in any capacity. I prefer to handle morals, ethics and philosophy on a purely role playing level. If this manifests itself at all mechanically, I want that to be based on my situational judgment as a GM, not on a concrete game mechanic that follows a fixed set of rules that may or may not make sense in any given scenario.

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and the insinuation in 4e (is it even insinuation when its that obvious?) that chaos is inherently evil just really bothers me. but i think i am probably preaching to the choir on this board.

That is I think a retro throwback to the original D&D, where you just had Law and Chaos. Why they are going that route, I don't know.

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1. Alignment is as restrictive as you make it. The problem was people seemed to enjoy making it a hard-fast system so then they could go out of their way to poke holes in it.

Thus we have paladins killing babies, and demons who can't plan, CG rogues who rape and strangely enough LE devils who are creative inventors completely unaffected by their devotion to Order.

2. I don't mind some restriction - being unaligned shouldn't let you
act like a jerk either. One of the problems I have is the devotion
people have to the metagame - that you should never do anything that negatively affects your stats. Would these characters ever stand at Helm's Deep? Or close the gateway from the Abyssal side lest Takhisis escape? Geez, what can change the nature of a man?

3. I agree that in some games, alignment lowers the fun people have. It shouldn't be a system that must be enforced. At the same time, removing it entirely detracts from the game, and I believe an optional system is beneficial. Use 'templates' that can be applied to creatures that then benefit/suffer for alignment.

I personally dislike simply roleplaying the character as a replacement for alignment, because it removes the moral dimension of reality.

I don't want to just go on racist killing sprees where the word "evil" justifies my highway robbery. I want to pull the sword meant for the pure of heart, I want to worry that tomorrow there will be no dawn because evil has come forth. Yet to have that be believable, my character has to fit into that moral-reality and has to the apparently difficult job of not acting like a royal douche.

Just as Factol Sarin refused to contribute to entropy by fighting Pentar, the character must decide the extent to which it cares about adding to evil/good/law/chaos. I can't see Planescape without this,
though YMMV.

4. Detect evil needs to be tweaked depending on the game, or just eliminated when it detracts from the fun. I like the idea of detecting intent.

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'sciborg2' wrote:
2. I don't mind some restriction - being unaligned shouldn't let you act like a jerk either. One of the problems I have is the devotion people have to the metagame - that you should never do anything that negatively affects your stats. Would these characters ever stand at Helm's Deep? Or close the gateway from the Abyssal side lest Takhisis escape? Geez, what can change the nature of a man?

Oh I agree entirely about resistance to metagaming. That is, in some ways, part of why I dislike alignment. Because it is a sort of metagaming "stat" for what really should just be left to good roleplaying and good GMing. I don't need alignment to inform me that the Devotee of a God must be pure of heart to wield the God's holy sword. Alignment is just a mechanical interface for all that stuff which can just as easily be handled abstractly.

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3. I agree that in some games, alignment lowers the fun people have. It shouldn't be a system that must be enforced. At the same time, removing it entirely detracts from the game, and I believe an optional system is beneficial. Use 'templates' that can be applied to creatures that then benefit/suffer for alignment.

I think that alignment is appropriate in certain games and certain contexts, particularly ones where there is a world with a single pantheon, or even clearer still, a single God, because then you have a clear origin for the moral compass of that universe. God determines what is right and wrong, alignment is merely a mechanical reflection of it. In PLanescape, where there is no single theology, morality is largely subjective, but Planescape tells us that, in some way, the ethos of the Judeo Christian world is in fact Good while the ethos of the Norse pantheon is Chaotic Neutral, and the Chinese pantheon is Neutral. That is a moral judgment coming from our viewpoint of morality. Do you think Chinese game designers would have come to the same conclusion? It is a moral judgment of philosophy and religion from the point of view of the game designers. I don't agree with it. I just see them as varying prescriptions for life. But the game is handing out a value judgment on that issue. I can either take it or leave it. Since my understanding of these things is pretty much neutral (hah) I see the deities as being in essence promoters of their view, and not being right or wrong according to some higher principle than themselves. I would rather leave those interpretations of Good and Evil in the hands of the players, and myself.

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I personally dislike simply roleplaying the character as a replacement for alignment, because it removes the moral dimension of reality.

Well, you can have a moral dimension for reality if you want it without alignment. One can have Arborea have its own set of moral standards that it expects of its petitioners and followers of its gods. It is saying that Arborea is objectively right in a setting that is supposed to be free of that kind of thing that doesn't work for me.

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I don't want to just go on racist killing sprees where the word "evil" justifies my highway robbery. I want to pull the sword meant for the pure of heart, I want to worry that tomorrow there will be no dawn because evil has come forth.

But these things can all be handled very easily without any need to appeal to alignment. A god can grant a holy sword to a faithful servant. That faithful servant can have absolute conviction in the righteousness of his cause. A horde of creatures that commit unspeakable horrors can threaten reality and impel characters to defend reality. If they need alignment to really justify taking up the cause, as opposed to character motivation, that's not a good sign. Any well thought out character will do these things anyway. If you've ever played any other role playing games, these same issues exist, yet I've never once had a problem due to the absence of alignment. There are world shattering soul sucking Horrors in Earthdawn. You don't need alignment to find them repugnant creatures. You just need a basic idea of character background and motivation to figure out how they would respond to such things. Calling them Evil is still a matter of perspective, even if most people in that world probably have that opinion. Why can't their actions speak for themselves? Why do we need a game mechanic? If we can evoke the moment or the act or the being well enough, there should be no need. The devotee of his God will know what to do when faced with the Holy Sword and the unrelenting threat of the demon wrought apocalypse. If he has to check his alignment to find an answer, I don't see much hope for him.

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so, you think the verbal component of detect evil was "i detect the EBIL in you!"? what is it for detect good then? you really think the evil wizards out there would go around insulting themselves like that? i think your confusing evil (the diametric IC opposite of good), and Evil (the arbitrary category given to a certain range of actions in a game so the players can have a discussion about it).

personally ive always interpreted those spells to mean that it allowed the caster to detect the aura the victims actions left around him. it makes sense to me that massively 'evil' acts leave a stain on a persons aura... though i dont see a lot of 'good' acts doing the same so much, ive just allowed it according to the the equal opposites idea. detect law/chaos makes no sense at all, so ive never allowed it. ive also made it rather subjective in effect: detect evil might show an inky black cloud of despair... but detect good isnt going to reveal a shining beacon of hope. more likely to show a pathetic pastel pink of anemic weakness (assuming an evil char cast it). and of course the intensity would change. i also generally gave it a bit more room for error, where a lawful character might mistake chaos for evil.

you might lose xp to a game mechanic for alignment shift... but any DM worth his salt should be giving you bonus xp for roleplaying that shift well. xp penalties for alignment shift are a punishment for not playing the character well, so if that isnt whats happening... characters having identity crisis is good, bonus xp; but players that put down one alignment on their character sheet to gain certain bonuses in game mechanics, who then play the character totally different, well thats bad, thats abusing the game, trying to break it. that earns negative xp, and a few character adjustments to fix it and allow the game to continue.

and yes LG characters can go around committing heinous crimes... they just wont be LG anymore. alignment isnt a tool to discuss and limit how a character -should- act, it is to discuss how it -is- acting, and how that effects the his relationship with the world around them. especially in planescape where the more extreme belief has a concrete effect on the world around them. your allowing your characters alignment to limit their actions, and somehow the only exit you see from that is to totally remove the alignment system?

try replacing the word for 'evil' in alignment with the word 'spork'. your spell is now 'detect spork'. obviously the spork alignment is OOC info, sporks dont exist. so when your character is acting spork, its pretty obvious that calling those actions sporkly is simply a tool the players are using to discuss them.

(however, sporks are terribly, unspeakably evil... so that last point may inherently be somewhat flawed.)

so wait, what your saying is that you want your LG paladins to be able to run around committing heinous acts in the name of their nation-state (all the while believing in 'good' acts and that 'evil' (heinous) acts are something they shouldnt be doing)... but remain paladins? you want their actions to have no effect on game mechanics whatsoever, beyond the roleplay aspect? even while the game mechanics involved in the character concept are based off the character being LG?

personally id rather see alignment get -more- complicated. each axis should get a number, rather then the simple 'your evil or your not'. one evil act should not automatically mean alignment shift, unless your character is close already. detect evil should work to a lesser extent on neutral characters with evil inclinations. a weapon that does 10 points of damage more to evil beings, should lose 30% of that if the being is only 70% evil. but it would be a pain of a mechanic to implement.

i think we are kick a dead horse at this point though (probably was even when i got into it). so i will bow out now. PMs if you like.

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i think we're more in agreement than disagreement Archduke.

for myself, i agree that alignment isn't strictly necessary and can even ruin the fun. however, i do believe that alignment can add to a game if players and DM want it to. see, i *want* a world where being a jerk means angels will oppose you and that they're attacks will hurt you worse. The rules represent the physics of the world, and I like metaphysics where being good/evil has physical effects...otherwise why have paladins?

as for RL gods being placed willy-nilly on the planes, i agree that these placements are at best flawed and worst incredibly ignorant. But again I think it depends on how you see cosmic evil. For example, when i do PS Kali is still in the Abyss but like the Korean god Kud she represents the darker emotions of the psyche. Their respective Pantheons are playing their own game, and what alignment means to them differs from what it means to other gods. It really depends on your group's comfort level where Jesus/Allah/Moses/Buddha/Baron Samedhi/Hastur fit on the alignment wheel or if they have any place in your game.

ps. I was only kidding, Hastur is obviously LG and should always be seen thusly.

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'sciborg2' wrote:
ps. I was only kidding, Hastur is obviously LG and should always be seen thusly.

Laughing out loud :shock: Laughing out loud

Did you know: One of Hastur's avatars has tentacles and sucks out brains!

Huzzah for the Feaster from Afar!

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'sciborg2' wrote:
It really depends on your group's comfort level where Jesus/Allah/Moses/Buddha/Baron Samedhi/Hastur fit on the alignment wheel or if they have any place in your game.

WARNING IRREVERENT STUFF FOLLOWS

I've actually had some fun with RL gods and pantheons in planescape. The campaign we're just wrapping up now had a human paladin/cleric from WW2 era Earth (weilding a holy Thompson:)). The player did a wonderful time portraying the PC as a devout Christian thrown onto the Planes and searching for the identity of his god. Eventually he learned that he'd actually been worshiping Moradin under another guise all along. Had a wonderful session when he fought the clerics of the Old Testament YHWH who was LE and had a realm in the Nine Hells. Toward the end he met Jesus (an unusually tall and gaunt dwarf that could pass as a short human) who was one of the semi-divine sons of Moradin and led a more NG sect of his father's faith.

One of the more interesting and entertaining campaigns I've DMed.

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The way I see it, and make a theme in my heavily PS-influenced homebrew is this:

Good, Evil, Chaos and Law are in fact absolute. However, they aren't the same as right and wrong. Acting Good might not be the right thing to do in all cases, the 'loths may have a better world-view than the Archons. Thus many philosophies are all over the place in terms of alignment. The nationalist is "Evil", according to the multiverse, because of his actions, but he might not be a bad person, or even in the wrong. The great battle of belief is in large part the battle to define one alignment as "right" across the entire multiverse.

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Conversions

Here's my suggestions for converting character and monster alignments from 3E to 4E... LG=Lawful Good, CG and NG=Good, LE and NE=Evil, CE=Chaotic Evil, and LN, CN and TN=Unaligned. Not a perfect fit, but... :roll:

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I thought this was interesting:

MMORPG.com Article: "D&D 4th Edition - Learning from MMOs".

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It seems that the student had become the teacher, the circle of life is complete, and a number of other clichés that I could use to say that the recently released 4th edition of Dungeons and Dragons looks less like the template for MMORPGs and more like a product of them.

Also: D&D Character Visualizer
But I already have Neverwinter Nights.

-420

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Nevewinter Nights is old. This is new, and has better graphics. Besides, NWN used truncated 3.0 edition rules. 4E is simple enough that it can be ported directly into a mainstream CRPG.

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'Dire Lemon' wrote:
Nevewinter Nights is old. This is new, and has better graphics.
That's funny, that is exactly what Obsidian said about the colossal flop that was NWN2.

-420

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equip weapons, clothing....wasn't the amazingly new when Diablo I came out?
This looks like a beta for Morrowind, itself a little long in the tooth.

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I like 4E, I've always wanted too play a swordmaster-like character, and in 3.X I had only the choice between hitting and hitting harder, I'm only extremely angry, because of the changes to the background setting and the monsters. Succubi as Baatezu, faceless unaligned alien-angels, tieflings as standardized infernal warlock-race and the lack of archons etc. don't belong to DnD. If they wanted to make a new cosmology that's fine with me, but they destroyed nearly all other settings with it. Remaking all the old monsters will take a lot of time and work, and as I see it some rather want to stay with 3.X than invest time in making 4E a good system for Planescape, Forgotten Realms etc.
To the ones who fear that our holy game will be defiled by MMORPG-players, I can assure you, that they are no danger. I once tried to get two World of WarCraft-Players into a Star Trek forum rpg. They rarely posted, and they forgot everything about the backstory of their characters, now they have completely stopped. Getting loot is easier in WoW, so they will stay there. :roll:
The alignment system of 4E is funny. Somehow I think, that two different people tried to fix it and didn't know of each other. The biggest problem with 3.X was that some classes were defined by their alignment, to the point where ONE simple act against the aligment could cost them all class abilities. Now we don't have these classes anymore, and the abilities that worked only against certain aligments are gone. Now the old alignment system would make a great compass, but somebody thought that it should be simpler.... Well, my Eladrin Fighter is still chaotic good, and if he dies he will go to Svartalfheim in Ysgard. Laughing out loud

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'Navarion' wrote:
The biggest problem with 3.X was that some classes were defined by their alignment, to the point where ONE simple act against the aligment could cost them all class abilities. Now we don't have these classes anymore

No paladins? Sad

Not to mention, priests who act in a way that would annoy their respective deities/pantheons should also have problems with their class abilities.

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'Zimrazim' wrote:
Not to mention, priests who act in a way that would annoy their respective deities/pantheons should also have problems with their class abilities.

Absolutely. That doesn't have to have anything to do with alignment, though.

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'Zimrazim' wrote:
No paladins? Sad

Not to mention, priests who act in a way that would annoy their respective deities/pantheons should also have problems with their class abilities.

There are still paladins, only that they are not bound by alignment, so we have one class instead of paladin, blackguard, paladin of freedom, paladin of tyranny, paladin of anarchy, paladin of tyranny etc. The old paladin was terrible, because it was too easy to engineer a situation were a paladin has to choose between performing a chaotic act or an evil act (or between performing two evil acts) so that he would lose his class abilities.
I think there should still be possibilities to make problems for clerics who disregard the rules of their deities, but this is something that should be handled by the DM, exactly like the pact of a warlock.

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The old paladin was terrible, because it was too easy to engineer a situation were a paladin has to choose between performing a chaotic act or an evil act (or between performing two evil acts) so that he would lose his class abilities.

It wasn't terrible. That was just the reason because there are so few paladins around the world.

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They were terrible and useless. Why should a god invest power in a paladin that he could lose every moment, because the paladin did something that wasn't even against the laws of this god??? Clerics are a much better investment of power. Now they both have their right to exist, the clerics as leaders and the paladins as defenders.

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'Navarion' wrote:
They were terrible and useless. Why should a god invest power in a paladin that he could lose every moment, because the paladin did something that wasn't even against the laws of this god??? Clerics are a much better investment of power. Now they both have their right to exist, the clerics as leaders and the paladins as defenders.

1. Paladins are really powerful and useful. Trust me. I play a paladin/ divine emissary and I can tell you that a strong paladin is something every deity would like to have. A blackguard isn't as strong.
2. Clerics are spellcasters, not warriors. A paladin is stronger in the fighting skills and can Smite Evil.
3. For a player is great to play a character with a little restrictions. It make everything more interesting.
4. If LG alignment is so difficoult there shouldn't be archons.

...Each singol virtuous paladin is an enormous weight on the scales of the cosmos.
each evil spirit is but a speck of dust.
too bad there's so many specks and so few weights...

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ops... double post, sorry

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Paladin is a class I never touched in the previous editions of D&D because they were too restrictive, and in 3e they weren't the most powerful class, that distinction went to clerics followed by druids then warblades.

But beyond power I just didn't like any of the role-playing aspects of paladins, always went against what I wanted to play.

Well there's a lot of things to hate about 4e, paladins aren't one of them. They're so much more playable and appealing than they were before. And don't have those unnatural restrictions anymore, even if they are prone to cheesy combos like multiclassing with warlock to use Eyebite with Divine Challenge.

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'Kobold Avenger' wrote:
Paladin is a class I never touched in the previous editions of D&D because they were too restrictive, and in 3e they weren't the most powerful class, that distinction went to clerics followed by druids then warblades.

But beyond power I just didn't like any of the role-playing aspects of paladins, always went against what I wanted to play.

Well there's a lot of things to hate about 4e, paladins aren't one of them. They're so much more playable and appealing than they were before. And don't have those unnatural restrictions anymore, even if they are prone to cheesy combos like multiclassing with warlock to use Eyebite with Divine Challenge.

Well, it was just the beauty of the paladin for me. It was not simple. A kind of challenge for the player.
If veryone could just wake up and become a paladin than it wouldn't be such a holy figure. 4ed for me destroied the aura of this kind of character.
It is simpler to be evil. If a character doesn't like to be LG it just shouldn't play a paladin. Play a divine champion!
Just like one who hates chaos shouldn't be a bard or a barbarian.

Apart from this... an epic paladin is really strong. In 3 ed he can make something like 600 hit points damage with a single blow of smite evil. And if you are a divine emissary you have a lot of them.

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'Navarion' wrote:
There are still paladins, only that they are not bound by alignment, so we have one class instead of paladin, blackguard, paladin of freedom, paladin of tyranny, paladin of anarchy, paladin of tyranny etc. The old paladin was terrible, because it was too easy to engineer a situation were a paladin has to choose between performing a chaotic act or an evil act (or between performing two evil acts) so that he would lose his class abilities. I think there should still be possibilities to make problems for clerics who disregard the rules of their deities, but this is something that should be handled by the DM, exactly like the pact of a warlock.

I always thought the variant paladins were a little stupid, with the exception of the blackguard and paladin of tyranny (LE). To me, it makes little sense for a Paladin of Freedom or Anarchy to rigidly follow the laws of a chaotic faith. Talk about oxymorons...

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'Felenthir Enthelion' wrote:
Well, it was just the beauty of the paladin for me. It was not simple. A kind of challenge for the player. If veryone could just wake up and become a paladin than it wouldn't be such a holy figure. 4ed for me destroied the aura of this kind of character. It is simpler to be evil. If a character doesn't like to be LG it just shouldn't play a paladin. Play a divine champion! Just like one who hates chaos shouldn't be a bard or a barbarian.
Just about all paladins were played the same, there was never any roleplaying challenge to playing most of them.

And 3e had a couple of things that let there be lawful bards, from class variants and more. Lawful barbarians were pretty easy to come by as well, as there were a couple of classes that used "frenzy" like the Sohei as a class ability and basically allowed anyone to overcome the alignment restrictions.

Paladin rigidity was something that I'm glad they finally pushed through the slaughterhouse and made into hamburger meat. Because I was tired of dealing with those 9 classes and trying to make one class to fit them all together. I also hated monk alignment restrictions, and that looks like it's going to the slaughterhouse as well.

I was really glad when they killed all alignment restrictions associated with psionics back near the beginning of 3e, as the arguments they had in 2e for why there couldn't be chaotic psionic characters were weak. As well as exterminating the alignment restrictions associated with Rangers as well, I didn't like that all Rangers has to be good.

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I didn't like the 3e restrictions on a monk's alignment either; being non-lawful doesn't mean you're undisciplined. The Greyhawk gods of monks, Zuoken and Xan Yae, are actually true neutral in alignment. This rule severely distorted how githzerai, usually chaotic neutral in previous editions, were perceived.

As for paladins, I really like Green Ronin's holy warrior class, which uses cleric-like domains to determine a set of powers for the followers of each god, which can be of any alignment. You can build a paladin if you select the right domains, but they can be much more.

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There's no reason a god of any given alignment shouldn't be able to have a subordinate order of holy warriors who follow a clergy-like code of behavior (the code just needs a little tweaking, that's all).

4e is good for what it is; the system looks pretty well put together (though I'd have to play a couple test combats to give it full approval). Unfortunately, what it is doesn't feel like D&D, to me -- it's a far cry from the game I fell in love with. Destiny quests? Character roles? No more die rolls for stats (except as a discouraged optional rule)? Builds?

Planescape *is* totally incompatible with the 4e setting. The multiverse is gone, reduced to an elemental toilet that drains into hell. One could suppose that the Great Ring is floating around in the Astral, I guess, but it's a pretty pale idea.

Still, it's a good business move, all in all. MMOs are all the rage, and WotC needs to capitalize on a younger audience and make the game more appealing to them. They'd be dumb not to -- but the end result is a game that's unworthy of the D&D legacy. WotC continues to pump out more streamlined game systems at the expense of the setting and the encouragement of creative play.

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Yep, nearly all alignment restrictions are gone for good. Smiling The only one is for a paragon path from dragon which requires good or lawful good alignment (because you have to be member of a good organization to learn it).

'Stix' wrote:
Planescape *is* totally incompatible with the 4e setting. The multiverse is gone, reduced to an elemental toilet that drains into hell. One could suppose that the Great Ring is floating around in the Astral, I guess, but it's a pretty pale idea.

I agree, Planescape is incompatible with the setting, but not with the system. At the moment I'm trying to make the old tieflings and aasimars as player races, I will post them when I'm done, and I still have hope, that some of the missing monsters will show up in later core books. If not we have to build them. Laughing out loud

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True, the 4e system can be made to fit with the Planescape setting.

Which multiverse would it use, in theory -- 2e, or 3.X?

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Where is the difference? :mrgreen: Sorry, I started D&D with Baldur's Gate II and got introduced to P&P in 3.0 by a planescape fan, so I don't know much about 2E, except that at that time Toril and Dragonlance were still connected to the great wheel, and that's how I still see it. Eye-wink

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'Navarion' wrote:
Where is the difference? :mrgreen: Sorry, I started D&D with Baldur's Gate II and got introduced to P&P in 3.0 by a planescape fan, so I don't know much about 2E, except that at that time Toril and Dragonlance were still connected to the great wheel, and that's how I still see it. Eye-wink

Smiling
well, on 3rd ed the astral plane isn't connected to the inner planes and the shadow plane is only a demiplane. On 3rd edition quasiplanes and demiplanes like ice smoke and magma doesn't exist.

I have to say that I prefer the 3rd ed version of the Astral.

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'Navarion' wrote:
Where is the difference? :mrgreen: Sorry, I started D&D with Baldur's Gate II and got introduced to P&P in 3.0 by a planescape fan, so I don't know much about 2E, except that at that time Toril and Dragonlance were still connected to the great wheel, and that's how I still see it. Eye-wink

In Planescape, the Prime is in the middle of things. On one side is the Astral, on the other side is the Ethereal (there is no overlap between these planes, and no Plane of Shadow). Beyond the Astral are the Outer Planes (Mount Celestia, the Abyss, etc.). Beyond the Ethereal are the Inner Planes (the Elemental Planes, Positive and Negative Energy, and Paraelemental and Quasielemental planes at all the junctures -- like Ice at the joint of Air and Water, or Radiance between Fire and Positive Energy).

With 3.X, they cut out the Para- and Quasielementals, the Astral and Ethereal are more like the high road and the low road to any of the planes (along with Shadow -- the really low road), and you get silliness like the border between Bytopia and Elemental Fire. There may have been other changes, but I stopped paying attention after I came to the conclusion that I'd rather play Planescape than whatever WotC is pushing today. Sticking out tongue

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silliness like the border between Bytopia and Elemental Fire

There are many silly things yes, but the astral plane that goes everywhere is not a stupid thing.

Otherwise people couldn't teleport on the inner planes or on the layers of the Outer planes other than the 1st ones.

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'Stix' wrote:
(there is no overlap between these planes, and no Plane of Shadow).

There's a Demiplane of Shadow that's virtually identical to (and the inspiration for) the 3e Plane of Shadow. The only difference is that the Demiplane of Shadow is finite, and the Plane of Shadow is infinite. The Demiplane of Shadow was described in the original (1e) Deities & Demigods, the original (1e) Manual of the Planes, Dragon #213, and A Guide to the Ethereal Plane, and mentioned offhand in a few other Planescape books.

It's also mentioned in the 2nd edition Player's Handbook and various Monstrous Compendiums, because advanced iillusion magic and shadow walk spells require it to work, and monsters like shadow dragons, greeloxes, shadelings, shades, and shadow mastiffs are native to it.

The Demiplane is assumed to have "matured" to the status of a full plane between editions.

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you get silliness like the border between Bytopia and Elemental Fire.

There are portals to the Plane of Elemental Fire in the Mithral Forge, the realm of Flandal Steelskin in Bytopia which he shares with the Japanese god Ama-Tsu-Mara. The Mithral Forge is close enough to a "border" between Bytopia and the Elemental Plane of Fire, and I'm sure that's the sort of thing the Planar Handbook meant.

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There are many silly things yes, but the astral plane that goes everywhere is not a stupid thing.

Otherwise people couldn't teleport on the inner planes or on the layers of the Outer planes other than the 1st ones.

The Astral is the plane of thought; it makes sense that it ties the Prime to the Great Ring, since the mind governs belief. Likewise, the Ethereal's protomatter and possibility connect the raw forces and material of the Inner Planes. I can see why the new edition lumped it all together (simplicity), but I felt like it was a dumbing-down of the conceptually brilliant delineation of the multiverse based on mind and matter.

Teleport isn't a planar pathway spell; it works on any plane. (Unless they changed that, for some reason.)

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The Demiplane is assumed to have "matured" to the status of a full plane between editions.

Hmm. Well, it's a nice thought that there's some continuity, but WotC just changed too much of the setting unnecessarily. I loved it as it was, and alterations like these really turned me off to it, such that I didn't even play 3.X until 2005 (when I discovered that I actually liked the d20 system, just not the way the developers were selling it). That was about the time I came back to Planewalker to check out what had been done with things.

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There are portals to the Plane of Elemental Fire in the Mithral Forge, the realm of Flandal Steelskin in Bytopia which he shares with the Japanese god Ama-Tsu-Mara. The Mithral Forge is close enough to a "border" between Bytopia and the Elemental Plane of Fire, and I'm sure that's the sort of thing the Planar Handbook meant.

Makes some sense. That irks me a little less. Smiling

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'Stix' wrote:
Teleport isn't a planar pathway spell; it works on any plane. (Unless they changed that, for some reason.)

It is.
It is stated on the Manual of the Planes in many points.
All the teleport spells are listed as spells that reuires the Astral to work.

I see that the contrast between matter and thought was cool, but it is also cool that thought goes everywere.

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'Felenthir Enthelion' wrote:
It is. It is stated on the Manual of the Planes in many points. All the teleport spells are listed as spells that reuires the Astral to work.

Huh. For everything WotC simplified, I'm surprised they unnecessarily complicated teleport... especially since the Astral connects everything in 3.X -- it doesn't even need saying.

Well, if the idea of a 4e conversion is in some way a democratic process, my vote remains solidly with using the original Planescape multiverse. There's no sense invalidating all the books that gave us the setting in the first place.

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'Stix' wrote:
especially since the Astral connects everything in 3.X

Well, fo istance in a demiplane there is no astral plane.
In the eladrin's court of Star is not possible to use teleport.

Teleportation is seen as an istant trip in the astral, like gate, with the difference that the 1st brings always on the same plane and layer and the 2nd only to different planes.

I have to say that the 2nd edition idea of the multiverse was great to explain why is so difficoult to arrive in the deeper layers of a plane (like to the 6th layer of Celestia) while with the 3rd ed you just need a miracle or a wish.
However the 3rd ed's view of the Astral is more precise, cause it explains better those spells like dimensional anchor that blocks the teleport.

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The Planescape accessory A Guide to the Astral Plane defined the Astral as the in-between space between planes. It's not really the plane of thought; it's not a place where thought, or anything else, was meant to exist. Thoughts have leaked into the plane through holes and cracks that have developed since the beginning of time, and blow through the void like terrible storms. Because the Astral is without any true space or dimension, nothing there has any true form or solidity; there isn't room for it to. It's all in your head, so thoughts are as solid as anything else. Still deadly, of course, because in a plane where thoughts can kill you, they can also be killed.

What changed is that in pre-3e, the Inner Planes (and demiplanes like the Plane of Shadow) weren't accessible from the Astral; you could only use it to travel between the Material Plane(s) and the first layers of the Outer Planes. I assume that the Astral Plane still touched all planes of existence, but it simply wasn't accessible; the planar barrier formed a solid wall. The Inner Planes simply aren't as "leaky" as the Outer and material planes.

I agree that the distinction between inner planes (accessible only through the Ethereal) and outer planes (accessible only through the Astral) is worth preserving. 3e really nerfed the Ethereal Plane by making it a transitive plane that hardly got you anywhere. It didn't touch the Inner Planes, so it only worked to travel to certain demiplanes or other parts of the Material. The flavor and role that was so well fleshed out in A Guide to the Ethereal Plane was taken away. The idea of it as the plane of potential, the womb of worlds from which raw elements and young demiplanes sprung was lost.

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I assume that the Astral Plane still touched all planes of existence, but it simply wasn't accessible;sprung was lost.

I see
But that means no teleport on the inner planes on 2nd ed?

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'Felenthir Enthelion' wrote:
I see But that means no teleport on the inner planes on 2nd ed?

2nd edition (and 1st edition) teleport spells had no connection to the Astral Plane, so connection to the Astral had no bearing on how they worked. You could use teleport just about anywhere.

In OD&D, teleportation was supposed to be work by accessing "hyperspace," a fourth spatial dimension beyond the third that most planes had. Interestingly, the Astral Plane was one of the few planes where teleport was impossible, because the plane was shifted dimensionally. Teleport spells allowed for three-dimensional flight only, flight spells functioned as one-dimensinal levitation spells, and levitation spells didn't work at all. That was OD&D, though; this wasn't true in 1e or 2e.

I think it's possible, mind you, to say that teleportation magic works using the Astral Plane but it's not possible to access the Astral in any way other than teleportation from certain planes and planar layers. It doesn't seem like it really improves the setting to define teleportation that way, however. There are any number of possible explanations for teleportation magic that don't force us to distort the cosmology.

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'ripvanwormer' wrote:
In AD&D, teleportation was supposed to be work by accessing "hyperspace," a fourth spatial dimension beyond the third that most planes had. Interestingly, the Astral Plane was one of the few planes where teleport was impossible, because the plane was shifted dimensionally. Teleport spells allowed for three-dimensional flight only, flight spells functioned as one-dimensinal levitation spells, and levitation spells didn't work at all. That was OD&D, though; this wasn't true in 1e or 2e.

Cool
Where did you find all this info about this hyperspace? And about the astral use of teleport similar to flight?

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'ripvanwormer' wrote:
The Planescape accessory A Guide to the Astral Plane defined the Astral as the in-between space between planes. It's not really the plane of thought; it's not a place where thought, or anything else, was meant to exist. Thoughts have leaked into the plane through holes and cracks that have developed since the beginning of time, and blow through the void like terrible storms. Because the Astral is without any true space or dimension, nothing there has any true form or solidity; there isn't room for it to. It's all in your head, so thoughts are as solid as anything else. Still deadly, of course, because in a plane where thoughts can kill you, they can also be killed.

True. Rather than:
Plane of thought

I should've said:
"Plane" of "thought".

'ripvanwormer' wrote:
I assume that the Astral Plane still touched all planes of existence, but it simply wasn't accessible; the planar barrier formed a solid wall. The Inner Planes simply aren't as "leaky" as the Outer and material planes.

There's a map in the original boxed set (my image search skills fail me) that displays the Astral touching only the Prime and the Great Ring.

'ripvanwormer' wrote:
3e really nerfed the Ethereal Plane by making it a transitive plane that hardly got you anywhere. It didn't touch the Inner Planes, so it only worked to travel to certain demiplanes or other parts of the Material. The flavor and role that was so well fleshed out in A Guide to the Ethereal Plane was taken away. The idea of it as the plane of potential, the womb of worlds from which raw elements and young demiplanes sprung was lost.

That's a real shame. GttE is some great source material. I liked it even better than Guide to the Astral (which was also great).

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'Stix' wrote:
There's a map in the original boxed set (my image search skills fail me) that displays the Astral touching only the Prime and the Great Ring.
This one seems to be based off it.

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I've always thought that map rocked.

I've also wondered what "Penumbra" means. Is that a term for the view one has approaching a crystal sphere, or is it some particular interesting place in the Multiverse?

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Oh, and there's also this map, which is entirely unofficial but does make for a nice way of remembering the relationships. Interesting place to put Sigil, too, if you notice.

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'Jem' wrote:
I've always thought that map rocked.

I've also wondered what "Penumbra" means. Is that a term for the view one has approaching a crystal sphere, or is it some particular interesting place in the Multiverse?

Not sure what it's supposed to mean in context, but generally a penumbra is part of a shadow, which is where the object only blocks some of the light.

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I'm so pleased to see the discussion take this turn, because I've been waiting for an opportunity to share my ideas about cosmology.
I had mixed feelings about the changes made between 2e and 3e, some where for the better and some for the worse, but I was certainly please that the Greet Wheel was still there. On top of this, I'm also a fan of SpellJammer. However, I've never felt that the SpellJammer cosmology fitted well with the Planescape cosmology. I have made an attempt to make them fit together better, and at the same time remove unnecessary duplication from the planar system. These are my ideas:

Did you notice how the ethereal plane acquired some definite space like characteristics? Space ships then could travel through the deep ethereal plane and there would be no need for the phlogiston.
Anything that can be done with wild space and the phlogiston, can be done with space and the ethereal. Instead of travelling the flow of the phlogiston, spaceships (or ‘etherships’) can travel the flow of the ethereal. The luminescent multi colours of the ethereal mists even look similar to the phlogiston. There can still be fleets of space ships that spend many days travelling from one world to another to war or to trade. There can still be interesting sights and islands along the way. There can still be huge worlds with huge expanses of space. There can still be strange creatures and civilisations that live in space or in the deep ethereal.
Another reason for this is that I wanted the ethereal to be more distinct from the astral, so that you could not travel by thought, only by physical propulsion.
Another thing that comes out of this, is that there is no need for a prime material plane. Instead the prime worlds could all simply be big demiplanes.
Despite the fact that 2e presented the astral as an in between plane, I liked it as a plane of thought, whereas the ethereal is a plane of space and matter. This is why, in my cosmology, both the astral and the ethereal are connected to the outer, inner and demi/prime planes, because they all need space, matter and perception.
I like the idea of a coexistent world, so I liked the plane of shadow but I see more than one coexistent world as duplication so I decided that the plane of shadow should be the same place as the border ethereal. You can phase out and into the shadow world, and then, if you wish to travel to another plane, you can jump from there, into the deep ethereal.
As for hyperspace travel, hyperspace travel is based upon space having more than three dimensions. It is not instantaneous, but you take short cuts by using the extra dimensions. The deep ethereal (my version of it that is) therefore takes the role of hyperspace travel.

For a bit more detail of my ideas and rationale see http://www.squiz.btinternet.co.uk/cosmology.html

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both the astral and the ethereal are connected to the outer, inner and demi/prime planes, because they all need space, matter and perception.
I have to say that an Astral connected to everywhere make things easy, and I can see why the 3ed designers did so. I mean, if it is the space between planes it really Must be everywhere. Even between the inner planes. Surely the flow of thought (ripvanwormer brilliantly spoke aboout them) is unidirectionally directed toward the Outer Planes of belief, BUT the astral void should connect everywhere.

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In OD&D, teleportation was supposed to be work by accessing "hyperspace," a fourth spatial dimension beyond the third that most planes had

Talking of this, I see that speaking of the 4th physical dimension in D&D is a little too much. It could have been confusing in a game with 17 different dimensions of belief and 6 of matter! That is why they reduced teleportation to an access to the astral.

Finally, saying that the astral is like in the 2nd edition would require a big work if corrections to say which spell DO and DO NOT use the astral.

For istance gate. If I'm a poor little elf (wizard 27th) in Elleniath, can I use this spell to excape? 2nd ed astral is connected only to the 1st layer of each outer plane.
If I travel with Astral Projection, can I arive to the Demonwebs (like the protagonist of The War of the Spider Queen do) or I have to stop in Pazunia?

Can I be resurrected on the Inner planes?
If not they would become some of th emost dangerous places in the multiverse. It seems something pretty unfair.

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I've also wondered what "Penumbra" means.

I could be wrong, but Penumbra should be the cristal sphere where the mynd flayer come from. The name is made in the 3 ed Psionic art compendium when they speak of an ancient staff.

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