22 Questions on Tharizdun

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sciborg2's picture
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22 Questions on Tharizdun

Gygax answers questions on Tharizdun

http://ulmo.mux.net/greyhawk/tharizdun.html

A quote:

Quote:
I don't think that the work cited is well thought out in this regard. If there was such a plane, it would be too well-known, and far too simple a matter to visit and pull a jail break, so to speak. Instead, envision if you will an infinite cosmos, and the potential to create all manner of new dimensional sets so removed from probabilities that a search of the combinations would take an eternity to complete but a fraction of the possibilities.

In short, the combination imprisoning Big T created a special isolation cell, as it were, and contained the major portion of this entity therein.

This is why Gygax was such a master world builder. Throwing in math-esque concepts in combination with the binding of an immortal evil that makes me feel like I bit into something unexpectedly delicious as ideas burst into my brain.

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22 Questions on Tharizdun

I have a question: what does Mr. Gygax mean when he says "new dimensional sets" and "combinations?"
I also like the "math-esque" concepts attached to Tharizdun, but I'm not sure I quite understand them.

Jem
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22 Questions on Tharizdun

The "combination" is a collection of gods fighting and imprisoning Tharizdun.

The "dimensional sets" are like demiplanes, or that odd space in which vestiges exist: "that distant and virtually unlocatable place in which Tharizdun is imprisoned," to quote the article. Think of it as another class of plane alongside demiplanes, transitive planes, Prime, Inner, and Outer. You'd have to be (a) insane, (b) a genius, (c) of deity-level power, and (d) unimaginably evil to find the place, though it is theoretically possible.

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22 Questions on Tharizdun

Thanks, but I'm still a little unclear. If the combination is a collection of deities, then what does Gygax mean by "a search of the combinations?" Note that it continues to state that this search would require "an eternity to complete but a fraction of the possibilities." Also, what does it mean for dimensional sets, tentatively defined as a class of plane, to be "removed from probabilities?"

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22 Questions on Tharizdun

"Dimensional sets" aren't a new class of plane; they're a way of defining the planes.

What Gygax meant was a multiverse with an infinite number of parallel Material Planes, each representing a subtle difference in one category (or dimension) or another - the continents might be shaped slightly differently, the magic or technology level might be higher or lower (these were mutually exclusive in Gygax's works), or history might have happened somewhat differently.

The spectrum of nonmagical to extremely magical is a dimension, like height or width or weight. The spectrum of nontechnological to highly technological is another dimension. The spectrum of slightly divergent from Oerth's timeline to extremely divergent is still another.

Now, imagine all of these possible different variations resulting in worlds nearly identical or completely alien to one another. Imagine you could use magic or technology to explore them if you knew what values to imput. Imagine that Tharizdun is imprisoned in one of them - how do you discover which? It's like figuring out a combination lock where each part of the combination contains all the numbers from one to infinity, including all the possible fractions.

Now imagine that the difference between a Material Plane and an Outer Plane was simply a difference in certain values. Outer Planes were more "astral" and Material Planes were more "ethereal." Some Outer Planes would be more material, and some Material Planes would be more astral. So that's another category whose value you'd have to guess.

A given plane might have an Astral rating of 5138.234343, an ethereal rating of 324343.4342343, a technological rating of 34342343.465765645, a magic rating of 9880.6878, a probability rating of 17438343.23434334, an entropy rating of 4323432.2343243, a cosmic heat index of 0783423.43234, and so on. There might be dimensions that indicate how quickly time passes, and what the local value of pi is, and how readily stars form. All sorts of things.

Those numbers are the "keys" to finding a specific plane of existence. You're effectively never going to find a specific plane if you don't already know its exact values. The chances are so low they might as well be nil.

Remember that Gygax's multiverse isn't exactly the Planescape one, and it isn't exactly the 1st edition one either. His ideas about the planes continued to evolve continuously even before he left TSR. Some of his ideas were elaborated in his non-TSR book Mythus Magic.

Jem
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22 Questions on Tharizdun

It doesn't mean anything formally; Mr. Gygax isn't using the terms in a rigorous sense as far as I can tell, and he seems to be using the word "combination" in a couple of different senses. Since he is no longer with us to clarify, I'm afraid any deeper reading must be purely speculative.

One way to parse his meanings might be that planes, in his view, represent possibilities, which can in turn be quantified by various probabilities. If any given plane can be thus identified by selecting a finite set of quantities from an infinite but discrete set, like whole numbers or rational numbers, then a sufficiently exhaustive search would eventually find any given plane, including Tharizdun's plane of imprisonment or a given plane of the Abyss.

The powers that imprisoned Tharizdun would want to make that search hard, so they might have put the imprisoning plane in a horribly obscure "dimensional location." If the usual Inner-to-Outer planes could be defined by, say, 3 choices each of rational numbers in three positions, and all of the usual planes we know of have numerators and denominators below 100, except for Ethereal demiplanes which have a fourth identifier that's easy enough to run up to a few million, then putting the prison on a plane identified by twelve thousand rational numbers consisting of randomly generated (hurray for Chaos!) ratios of selected primes in the quadrillions would make it incredibly difficult to stumble on randomly (hurray for Law!).

If the string of probabilities defining a plane must be finite but can be indefinitely large, the deities imprisoning Tharizdun might have sought to prevent such a search from working by having his prison shift "dimensional position" every thousand years, moving it further down the line by shifting a few hundred more coordinates away from zero. Those moments of transition might be moments of weakness in the prison.

Jem
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22 Questions on Tharizdun

Ninja'ed by 4 minutes, verily as I typed!

shakes fist at Rip

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22 Questions on Tharizdun

Wow...both of your replies are amazing! Thanks Smiling

sciborg2's picture
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22 Questions on Tharizdun

rip and jem, great stuff -- truly truly truly outrageous!

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