Without celestials, D&D risks being infantile.

sciborg2's picture

When I was younger I used to think that Planescape was better played with incredibly flawed celestials. The goodly races were arrogant and flawed, and unjustly exiled angels bordered on suicidal while spending eternity in the Outlands or elsewhere.

As I grew older, learning about different cultures - whether of nations or pockets of people in dorm rooms - and their religious/political views, I became more and more curious about the idea of truly virtuous beings. Once I started writing/reading more on D&D's good exemplars, and tried to think what it would be like to be an angelic being, I realized how fascinating such beings would be since they offered a chance to model our own human striving for moral advancement.

What would it be like to love everyone, even your enemies? What would it be to grow up in paradises, yet to feel emphatically the suffering of another? These are beings that represent the best of us, but they are also pre-enlighthenment Siddartha like figures who won't have our understanding of being born into a world of imperfection.

In fact, while celestials shouldn't be perfect, that they strive to do good makes them incredibly interesting aides and antagonists to PCs. If an economic plan by a wizard king calls for short term suffering of the poor but long term betterment of the nation, where do celestials and PCs stand? What lengths will celestials go in the name of free speech or communal harmony?

And as the years go by, do they burn out? Become desperate, frustrated? They are the inner city teachers, social workers, and honest cops of the multiverse - jobs that we can admire them for even as we worry what happens when they stop caring and go rogue.

Really, celestials offer a level of maturity to D&D gaming that 4th edition lacks now that the guardinals are sleeping with fishes. One might hope that gods vs. primordials and demons as "Hulk Smash!" will lead to avenues of mature moral quandary, but I won't be holding my breath.

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Well that seems to be why

Well that seems to be why the fallen known as the Bazatu came to being.

But that is just my views on things....

 

Alexi

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PS cannon is quite clear

PS cannon is quite clear that the Baatezu aren't fallen celestials, they're entirely independant. 4e's take is of course different, but if your using 4e Baatezu fluff in Planescape...yeah.

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i think in 3.5 Tyrants of

i think in 3.5 Tyrants of the Nine Hells, the story on the devils were that they were fallen lawful exemplars, perhaps even LG exemplars irrc.

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Faces of Evil is Planescape

Faces of Evil is Planescape cannon. To9H is a good book, but I don't think of it as cannon--this is, of course is my boring and conservative opinion. Also, Xansost makes it a far better read.

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Oh, I wasn't implying To9H

Oh, I wasn't implying To9H was PS canon, just thought I'd mention where the fallen angel motif got its start.

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I'm not angry, just being

I'm not angry, just being cannon-happy Smile Strictly, the Judeo-Christian mythology is to blame, not To9H. Hehe. 

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Yeah, celestials are tied

Yeah, celestials are tied with factions/sects for my favorite part of Planescape.

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I do agree.  I'm not sure

I do agree.  I'm not sure why Wizards opted to leave out good-aligned exemplars in their 4e.  It doesn't make sense to me, personally.  If there are paragons of evil in its various flavors, not to mention law (inevitables) and chaos (elementals and slaad), why are there no good paragons?  Some might --and have-- said just because there's evil/law/chaos doesn't mean there needs to be good, but it seems lacking.

I suspect --and this might be me being jaded and cynical-- that a fair portion of this stems from the idea that true goodness is "boring."  It seems to be a popular concept among many young players.  Why be good when you can be evil and have more fun?

I suppose I'm a little too cynical though Eye-wink

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'Evil is more fun' does

'Evil is more fun' does seem to be a leading theme in 4E. Not to say it wasn't a big theme in other editions- compare the amount of effort they seem to have put into Book of Vile Darkness opposed to how they skimmed through Book of Exalted Deeds, for instance- but warlocks and tieflings particularly smack of it. I suppose the argument is that most players don't really fight celestials. Make angels any alignment, however, and then yeah, you can totally beat the snot out of the Metatron! It seems rather silly to me. Sticking out tongue

This may be because I have a dismal view of the real world and doubt that goodness can truly exist in it, but I'm quite enamored with the idea of Good as a real and powerful force in fantasy worlds. Why just points of light? Why not beacons and brands and glorious bonfires shining against the darkness?

I like your idea of Bodhisattva-like celestials, sciborg. Laughing out loud Especially if one's cosmology goes with the idea of celestials being ascended petitioners.

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