"Native" Outsiders in Planescape

Rick Summon's picture

Aasimar, tieflings, and genasi are staple characters for almost every Planescape campaign.  However, they are classified as "native" outsiders, which doesn't make any sense if your planetouched character isn't native to the Material Plane.  Some people choose to reclassify these characters as humanoids instead. That, however, diminishes their power level, as being an outsider makes you immune to charm person and the like. It also changes your options for such spells as alter self and polymorph.  (For example, a tiefling cannot use alter self to become a human, but he could use it to become a flamebrother salamander.  No one who is not already an outsider can use polymorph to become one.)  So, if you want your planetouched characters to be outsiders, what should you call them if they aren't "native"?

Simple: Change the "native" subtype to the "mortal" subtype.  This is really what separates planetouched characters from full-blooded outsiders.  A planetar or gelugon cannot die of old age, but it can't be raised or resurrected either.  A planetouched character can do both, yet still has an undeniable connection to the planes in his blood.

Some, however, might object that making planetouched characters immune to charm person is too powerful for a planar campaign.  According to the Planar Handbook, planetouched make up 20% of the population of Sigil, and that's a lot of people who your spells can't affect.  One solution for this could be the use of spell keys that allowed humanoid-affecting spells to affect mortal outsiders.  However, that belongs to another article.

Why: Just because it makes sense.Pro: It allows planetouched to be different from regular outsiders without referencing the Material Plane.

Con: Some people would rather have planetouched as humanoids instead.

Nemui's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-08-30
"Native" Outsiders in Planescape

Quote:
According to the Planar Handbook, planetouched make up 20% of the population of Sigil

The PLH gives an incredibly high elf and halfling percentage, which makes absolutely no sense. The bariaur are herded (heh) into the "other" category, the exemplars as well, the 'zerai are not even mentioned, and all the various planetouched are thrown in together (a 20% total might be OK, but tieflings are way more numerous than, say, earth genasi).

Oh, and the listed population is only 250,000. I'm nost sure this is in accord with 2E info.

I chose to ignore the Sigil stat block in the PLH.

Rhys's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-05-11
"Native" Outsiders in Planescape

I think having planetouched as humanoids rather than outsiders is better. There's no need for a (Native) subtype which basically simply adds on all the humanoid traits that they'd otherwise be missing.

As for shape-changing options, since a tiefling is, for example, a human who has an exclusively human lineage with the exception of one gelugon grandfather, I think he'd more easily take on an elf form than a salamander form.

In my interpretation, planetouched are humans, really. They just have an additional qualifier that makes them different. They come from human families and act like humans, but have some traits that set them apart from the larger classification.

Yes, I realize that planetouched can be from any race. If you really want to make something of it, substitute "non-fiendish race" for "human" in the previous paragraph.

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
"Native" Outsiders in Planescape

Quote:
However, they are classified as "native" outsiders, which doesn't make any sense if your planetouched character isn't native to the Material Plane.

You're certainly correct about this. The word "outsider" doesn't make any sense in Planescape either (outside what?). "Mortal" is definitely a better term to describe "natives" - a better word for "outsiders" (plane-borne? exemplar? reification?) might also be welcome, though I just accept that the names are terrible and move on.

Sigil's population in In the Cage was more like a million, with half of this being made up of people who live in Sigil full time, the other half commuters. I think even this is too small, since Waterdeep has a bigger population.

Almighty Watashi's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-11-22
"Native" Outsiders in Planescape

I like the name "outsider". That's what separates the belief-based planes from the "realistic" material planes which are the base of "real" life. In other words, material creatures are "real" creatures and planar creatures are fused by pure belief and can be summoned from the "outside". Then, you could change genasi from "native outsider" to "native elementals" which would be the same thing, only with different name Smiling

As for Waterdeep, I don't know the population count in 2e. If it was also 1mil, population of Sigil should be increased drastically. If it used to be less, then take into account that the prime material cities can expand territory and Sigil is stuck in it's ring

nick012000's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-05-19
"Native" Outsiders in Planescape

I'll point out that Genasi are descended from Genies.

Fidrikon's picture
Offline
Factor
Joined: 2004-12-19
"Native" Outsiders in Planescape

Sigil can expand. From what I heard, the Lady can make Sigil as big as she wants to make room for a larger (or smaller) population.

As for the population in sigil, all you can ever really know is the population of people that actually live there. Who has the time to count all the clueless primes that wander in and the Planewalkers that are just passing through?

Clueless's picture
Offline
Webmonkey
Joined: 2008-06-30
"Native" Outsiders in Planescape

Or, Undersigil.

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
"Native" Outsiders in Planescape

'nick012000' wrote:
I'll point out that Genasi are descended from Genies.

Among other elementals and elemental outsiders, yes.

nick012000's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-05-19
"Native" Outsiders in Planescape

'ripvanwormer' wrote:
'nick012000' wrote:
I'll point out that Genasi are descended from Genies.

Among other elementals and elemental outsiders, yes.

But most commonly genies, because they're the most humanoid.

Clueless's picture
Offline
Webmonkey
Joined: 2008-06-30
"Native" Outsiders in Planescape

Source?

nick012000's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-05-19
"Native" Outsiders in Planescape

I don't know, actually. My extent of Planar material consists of the 3e MotP and whatever I can get for free off of the Internet.

Clueless's picture
Offline
Webmonkey
Joined: 2008-06-30
"Native" Outsiders in Planescape

Ok, let me know if you ever pin down where you read that then - i'm interested in confirming that. Smiling

nick012000's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-05-19
"Native" Outsiders in Planescape

I'm pretty sure it was somewhere on the WotC boards. Can't really be more specific than that, though.

Rick Summon's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2005-02-01
"Native" Outsiders in Planescape

'ripvanwormer' wrote:
The word "outsider" doesn't make any sense in Planescape either (outside what?)
Well, it's not like anyone goes around calling people "outsiders" in the game world. Planars might use terms like "Outers" for inhabitants of the Outer Planes, although that doesn't cover the outsiders who live on the Inner Planes. It's just easier to use "outsiders" than "immortal non-elemental creatures that are not of Material Planar origin; and when we say 'non-elemental', that includes creatures like genies who are only sort of elemental." Laughing out loud

Quote:
Sigil's population in In the Cage was more like a million, with half of this being made up of people who live in Sigil full time, the other half commuters. I think even this is too small, since Waterdeep has a bigger population.
Undoubtedly true, but the population breakdown in the Planar Handbook is done by percentages, so the total doesn't really affect that. I have no doubt, however, that the Fraternity of Order would be more precise about the percentages of planetouched and "others" in Sigil.

Still, the fact remains that if 20% (or more) of the population looks mostly human, but is immune to xxx person spells, it amounts to a 20% miss chance for these spells every time, which greatly diminishes their usefulness in Sigil. Also, it would seem that polymorphing into an outsider is not generally useful, as outsiders are dependent on spell-like and supernatural abilities for most of their power. If you want to polymorph anyone, human or planetouched, your best bets are creatures with high Strength and Improved Grab (like dire lions) or creatures with strong Extraordinary attacks (such as achaierai or digesters.) Still, it might have some usefulness for the purpose of disguise, as most devils don't go around using their fear auras on each other.

I think the idea behind making planetouched into outsiders was that outsider blood is much more "potent" than humanoid blood; thus, the outsider type trumps almost all others when applying templates that change creature type. Still, it creates a bit of inconsistency, since an axiomatic or anarchic humanoid is still a humanoid (but no less a planetouched.)

A better solution might be to have "Planetouched" as a subtype of humanoid and monstrous humanoid. They'd still be vulnerable to humanoid-affecting spells, but they'd be allowed to use polymorph and the like to transform into outsiders similar to their ancestors. They might even be able to gain some Extraordinary special qualities when they do this. What do you think?

(I would have added this to the actual article, but it doesn't seem to allow edits.)

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
"Native" Outsiders in Planescape

'Rick Summon' wrote:
Well, it's not like anyone goes around calling people "outsiders" in the game world.

It's not like anyone goes around calling people "native outsiders" in the game world either, so I fail to see your point. Both "native" and "outsider" are game-mechanics terms; neither of them are used by characters in that sense.

If we wanted the game terms to sound more like words the characters would actually use, "mortal" describes what native outsiders are supposed to be better than the word "native" does, and "planeborn" works better than "outsider."

Quote:
Still, it creates a bit of inconsistency, since an axiomatic or anarchic humanoid is still a humanoid (but no less a planetouched.)

No. Axiomatic and anarchic humanoids are the equivalents of celestial and fiendish humanoids. All of these creatures retain the humanoid subtype. None of them are "planetouched" - celestial, fiendish, anarchic, and axiomatic creatures have no mortal blood at all. They only superficially resemble their Material Plane equivalents.

The lawful and chaotic planetouched are zenythri, mechanatrixes, and chaonds. Like aasimars and tieflings, they're outsiders. So there's no inconsistency.

Lord of the Ninth's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-10-20
"Native" Outsiders in Planescape

The whole genie bit with the genasi is what puts the "gen" in "genasi," even if it is pronounced differently.

nick's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-11-27
"Native" Outsiders in Planescape

http://users.erols.com/aburner/planescape/inner2.html

No, genasi are NOT just from genies. How do vacuum genasi form? There are no genies in vacuum. It can occur when 2 humans mate and the mother spends the entire pregnancy on the plane.

Down the bottom of the page, if u click next, it will go through all the genasi, apart from fire, water, earth, and air.

Sucros's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2007-01-04
"Native" Outsiders in Planescape

"native" outsider is clearly a term derived by clueless primes, but nonetheless describes something important. It describes a set of creatures that are essentially mortal, but are composed in part of the raw belief that makes up a plane, be it law, fire, ect.

The term itself is a contradiction. Outsider is a prime word meaning "one not from here", where as native is defined as "from here". Outsider serves a useful catch all term to describe creatures native to the planes, all of which are formed at least in part of the raw ideals of the planes. "native outsiders" are creatures that are too able to be described as being made in part of ideal, but are mortal and more imicable to prime sensibilities, making them seem a bit more native, hence the oxymoronic moniker.

Nemui's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-08-30
"Native" Outsiders in Planescape

Some people choose to already interpret the native subtype as your "mortal outsider". That is, they do not think having the subtype means a creature is actually native to the Prime Material Plane.

I had a lenghty discussion with Rip Van Wormer about that, and came up with no real conclusions other than the fact that I prefer the humanoid planetouched approach, which I already knew.

Losing the immunity to humanoid-only effects (by changing them from outsiders to humanoids) does not warrant a LA adjustment IMO. However, some already borderline cases, such as the genasi, might need some minor buffs to make up for it, like elemental resistance 5 for example...

Planescape, Dungeons & Dragons, their logos, Wizards of the Coast, and the Wizards of the Coast logo are ©2008, Wizards of the Coast, a subsidiary of Hasbro Inc. and used with permission.